Printable Version of Topic

Posted by: Arcady Dec 4th 2006, 1:18 PM

Season 3, Episode 13 - Irresponsible
Air date: April 2007

The team discovers Lucius Lavin manipulating the people of another hapless planet, using Ancient technology to pose as an invincible hero.

http://www.sg1archive.com/atlantis/s3.shtml#313 | http://www.sg1archive.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=14759 | http://www.sg1archive.com/teasers/a313.html

(This topic is for people who have seen the episode to discuss it. If you don't want to be spoiled, don't read this topic.)

Posted by: fan_83 Dec 6th 2006, 2:56 PM

just saw it.. after 2 great episodes this one sucks.. at least kolya is finally dead and thats the end of teh shepard kolya arc... unless they bring him back from the dead..

Posted by: Revan Dec 6th 2006, 9:14 PM

I was quite impressed with this episode, especially because of the presence of Richard Kind as Lucius Lavin. It was an interesting and good filler episode. There was little development though... We seemed to learn nothing new of any character... exempting the exchange in the building when Sheppard wanted to rush out guns a blazin'..... Though it could be said that it was only further reinforcement of already known character traits, and that they were only filling their normal roles.

I thought the distinctly Wild West taste when Kolya was killed was nice, although not entirely unexpected. It was also fairly obvious that the shield was going to be exhausted at the inopportune moment.

We learned a little bit more about the situation the Genii and former soldiers of the Genii are in... Perhaps this is a hint at the beginning of a new story arc.... that TPTB realized the Genii could be utilized for major and minor plots.




The location they used to film this episode was quite lovely... does anybody know where they filmed, or if they constructed any sets?

Posted by: magnavox Dec 6th 2006, 10:48 PM

KOLYA'S DEAD! I'm sad that we won't see him in anymore episodes (then again, this is sci fi), but kinda glad that they didn't drag his storyline with Sheppard on. Kudos to the way they Shep took him out quick draw style!

It wasn't too bad of an episode, wasn't really that impressed to see Lucius again though, but his ideas on how to sneak Sheppard back into the village were funny "Maybe they're scared of giants" LOL.
But I don't understand how dumping his head underwater would negate the shield since MacKay wasn't able to drink coffee or eat etc while he had it activated, I'd assume the device would only allow air to pass through? Now submerging his entire body might have work because then his oxygen would eventually run out.

I think the village was filmed in the same place as Revisions, they just layed down some grass or something.

Rodney loves Batman!

Posted by: Rogue Ashrak Dec 7th 2006, 1:47 AM

Dammit! Kolya was one of my favourite bad guys, it was always interesting to watch him and Shep go head to head. I honestly hoped they would keep him around a while longer.

I know they obviously couldn't keep that arc going forever but i thought that when it ended Kolya would go out with a bang having been brilliantly outsmarted by Sheppard yet again.....but this? A quick draw? What a crappy way to die.

The ep was okay....but most of the story was waaay too predictible. Definetely not one of their better efforts.

Posted by: Pitry Dec 7th 2006, 9:43 AM

Well, how many missed opportunities in one episode?

I'm referring mainly to Sheppard. Y'know, this could have been the one episode where we get to see Sheppard a little bit out of his box, a little bit more challenged, perhaps a tad darker than the usual flyboy attitude. Nothing.
As if this wasn't the man who just 6 episodes ago tortured him almost to death. Didn't get even a smidgen of a vibe for that. What, that he wanted to kill him? He wanted that before Common Ground, too.And what busg me more - so he killed him, clean (oh, in that clichי western style... could have lived without it) - and shows nothing for it.
I don't know f it's the writing, JF, or both. But nothing seems to ever change Sheppard. Even when there are opportunities for it, the character seems to have an inner-built reset button - hell, reformatting every single episode. And it shoudln't be like that - Sheppard's gone through enough ion this season alone to merit some affect. At least some. I think the writers, directors and JF should allow Sheppard to stop play the hero and start confronting reality.


I also don't liek how it turned all of a sudden to be personal between Kolya and Sheppard from Kolya's side. I expected it from Sheppard - btu didn't sense it - but not from Kolyas. It wasn't before. Even after he shot him in The Eye, Kolya dind't take it all that personally. Okay, so he doesn;t like Sheppard - but he would't make special ops just to get him.

All the cuts between scenes (Lucious invincible - Kolya's soldiers drowning him; the team hiding - suddenely getting captured) were just aboutt he worst short cuts ever, (SG1 season 10 spoilers)

...

And lastly, shame they killed Kolya. He was written compeltely and utterly cliched bad guy in here, but Robert Davi made it much less embarrassing than it could have been and the character did have potential. And some potential, at elast, to get perhaps a differnet reaction frmo Sheppard sometime in the future.

Othe than that, it wasn't all that bad.... Well, maybe because I expected it to be horrid. I actually think Irresistable was much worse. Liked Lucios coming with ideas as to how tog et the Genii out of the village (magnifying glass and duct tape! Snark.) Liked the superhero discussion at the beginning, McKay lieks Batman! Awww.
I'm pretty sure it was where they shot Revisions.... prolly some part of Vancouver? Lucious was lass obnoxious here than he was the last time, I actually kind of liked how he ripped off Sheppard's "advantures" to befuddle his admirers... And the speech for indepenadnce by that girl, which was exterme;y silly and obviuos and yet came out nice
Interesting how everyone in the team is willing to die for Meredith BTW ... mwaha. And Carson! He actually was in the episode, hooray.

Well, let's hope next week they'll come back to the rest of the seaosn 3 quality.

Posted by: More Cowbell! Dec 7th 2006, 12:41 PM

Exactly Vill!

I knew I recognized that set. I could see Revisions all over the place!

I thought this ep was average. It was somewhat funny, but I think they could have done more with it.

Who wrote this one?

Posted by: KillerMarv Dec 7th 2006, 12:56 PM

Ha, I knew you were gonna say that... I did warn you, you know.

Before I go with what I liked about this episode, let's go with what I didn't like: Lucius, Superhero-ing, Lucius, no Weir, Lucius, Kolya's death, Lucius...

Hope they don't bring that Lucius fellow back. Yeah... I like the ending though. The poor guy not knowing about the wrecked shield and getting one nasty kick in the...

Posted by: juks89 Dec 8th 2006, 12:38 AM

I thought that the superman could be that guy lucius who everybody liked in 1 episode...
I see that Kolya doesn't have anything better to do than hunting Sheppard on some less important planet, i would of liked seeing him taking over the geni goverment and turning them "bad" again, but this is a way to go i guess.,,

Posted by: KillerMarv Dec 8th 2006, 11:46 AM

Kolya may have wanted to revenge on Sheppard, but there is also the fact that he didn't have the firepower to make a successful coup on the Genii government. He needed weapons from Atlantis to really succeed, and the key to getting them was to capture key persons from the Atlantis expedition.

Posted by: Pitry Dec 8th 2006, 12:06 PM

They should shoot more episodes in that place. There seem to be enough they haven't shot inyet, and I'm starting to recognise differnet parts of the eternal wood

ETA: there's a maze! A maze! Now it's oficial they have to shoot more episodes htere.

Posted by: Aazadan Dec 13th 2006, 1:53 AM

I'm suprised there was no mention of Kolya feeding Shepard to a Wraith. Shepard wanting to just kill Kolya right out in the beginning when the village was fired invaded showed there was a good deal of resentment there. But still, just a "you fed me to a wraith" type comment would have sufficed. That seems like it would be a pretty traumatic event worth bringing up again.

Posted by: Revan Dec 15th 2006, 3:47 PM

Good point.

One would expect Sheppard to simply kill Kolya at the first chance. I do not think anybody would have objected to him doing so, even if it would be entirely unprofessional.

Posted by: More Cowbell! Dec 15th 2006, 3:56 PM

Actually, that raises a point. Wouldn't Kolya be interested in how Sheppard was still alive, and not looking any older?
A "hey, I thought you should look about 75 years old right now" or that kind of thing?

Posted by: KillerMarv Dec 15th 2006, 4:03 PM

Yeah, I was kind of looking forward to seeing Kolya asking him what did he do to change his look back to normal. I know it wasn't a surprise for him to see him that way because his spies may have informed him upon seeing Sheppard, but Kolya's curiosity should have been bigger. I know there wasn't enough time for that since it was a nice draw, but...

Posted by: Revan Dec 15th 2006, 4:03 PM

Interesting... I would have thought they could have addressed the 'gift of life'... though, given their intelligence gathering abilities, they could already know.

Posted by: More Cowbell! Dec 15th 2006, 4:07 PM

If that is true, is Koyla even dead now, or did they (his followers) bring him back to another wraith prisoner somewhere and force him to heal him!

Posted by: stalker0 Jan 22nd 2007, 1:53 PM

I didn't mind them finally taking out Kolya, though he was my favorite badguy. I didn't even mind the quick draw finish. What I did mind was it happened in such a lackluster filler episode. The whole episode is like, alright there's some minor problems, Lucius is back, Kolya is killed, McKay drinks some tea, everyone learns their lesson. That's how it felt to me.

Posted by: singularity12 Jan 23rd 2007, 2:13 AM

the choking could be from Lucius’ not being able to breathe in oxygen instead of from breathing in water. the shield blocks liquid from getting into the body (McKay was unable to eat or drink), but if Lucius’ head was under water, then he wasn’t getting any air. i.e. the choking.
but i think there's another problem. Lucius didn’t have the ATA gene. he couldn’t activate the device so he got someone with the gene to “initiate the device” for him. but in “Hide and Seek” (season 1 episode 3), the texts that came along with the device said that it “imprints on the wearer” and that “it wouldn’t work on anyone else.” that's why when it finally fell off McKay, it didn't work on Sheppard. so since Lucius didn’t initiate the device himself, it shouldn’t have worked on him, and Sheppard definitely wouldn’t have been able to use it at the end of the episode.

Posted by: Jade Jan 23rd 2007, 7:03 AM

Not a great episode for me, maybe because Lucius was too annoying for me, want to slap him, or strangle him. happy to see him lost his little power. Please don't come back (nothing against the actor Richard Kind).

Koyla dead, great! He was boring, totally lost the plot in common ground, not a 'good' bad guy, just bad, hopefully he will stay dead. All the Geniis are boring anyway.

Posted by: Auntie Em! Jan 23rd 2007, 3:54 PM

I liked Koyla. He was a great enemy. Very sinister. Too bad that he is gone now. There are not many truely evil enemies in SGA. This even narrows the field that much more.

Oh for goodness sake why could they not have killed Lucias instread? He is a horrible character. Far too shallow for any real long term entertainment.

Another stupid M&M story! They should have killed M&M instead of Koyla. Now that would have made me stand and roar with laughter!

Posted by: Dafmeister Jan 24th 2007, 4:12 PM

Well done to the dynamic duo again for such a sh*t episode. Seriously, can't M&M come up with their own ideas for episodes? It seems they can only build upon what others have written (and I use the term build very loosely).
Lucius is an annoying dumbass and they actually killed Kolya, I mean, WTF? To top it all off they ended the episode with a showdown. TPTB really need to fire these two clowns as they are going to ruin Stargate.

Posted by: Parmenides Jan 28th 2007, 1:59 PM

Well I didn't find Lucius as annoying as I did in Irresistible. Don't get me wrong, he was still annoying as hell...but not as bad as he was in the first episode.

While I think we can all agree that Kolya's death was pretty much the only satisfactory end to that arc, it shouldn't have happened in this episode - it was pure filler, and Kolya's death would have been more suited to a more serious episode. Oh well, trust M&M.

Teyla seemed a bit too human in this episode. Just an aside.

Posted by: JC1 Jan 29th 2007, 7:01 PM

Lucius is still annoying, hope we don't see that character again. They really should have come up with a decent episode to end the Sheppard/Koyla arc.

And it would be nice to see a more serious side to Sheppard. Koyla did feed him to a Wraith again and again, I expected a little more than a lighthearted quickdraw.

Posted by: Dafmeister Jan 29th 2007, 7:16 PM

Kolya Vs. Sheppard was always a good addition to any episode but the fact that Kolya always wanted to kill Sheppard and failed made it tedious. Unless Robert Davi no longer wanted to appear in Atlantis, I don't see why they killed him off. Having the rogue Genii team acting as a thorn in the Atlantis team's side occasionally would have made for a couple of good episodes.

Posted by: Revan Jan 29th 2007, 7:31 PM

I agree with JC1, I expected Shep to be less professional when he killed Kolya. He is quick enough to disobey orders when it suits him, why not be emotional here, and kill Kolya in a more vicious, revenge-oriented way?

Posted by: JTMAG1 Jan 29th 2007, 8:25 PM

"Because that would lower us." (said in my best David Carradine voice (which isn't very good)).

We don't want to see shepard in an sinister light, so he doesn't do things like that.

Posted by: Revan Jan 29th 2007, 8:27 PM

It would make him an interesting character.
Sunday:

Posted by: JC1 Jan 30th 2007, 1:49 PM

It wouldn't be all that sinister, Koyla is an enemy of Atlantis and the Genii. And Sheppard did kill Koyla, eventually, but it would have been better if he showed more emotion or a darker side to his character.

If you look at O'Neill, he had something of a shady past. While he was always full of sarcastic and smart comments, there were times when he showed emotion and a much more serious side to his character.

With Sheppard, we more or less see the same character each episode. The Sheppard vs Koyla thing could have allowed us to see a different aspect to Sheppard, but the writers chose to waste it, in my opinion.

Posted by: JTMAG1 Jan 30th 2007, 2:20 PM

With that said, I can think back to 'The Storm', and I remember Sheppard yelling Koyla's name over the radio. I guess that emotion was great. I wouldn't want to see Sheppard kill his enemy in cold blood but perhaps a little emotion would not be a bad thing.

Posted by: Sylver Apr 28th 2007, 8:29 AM

They couldn't have killed Lucius instead? I know that's not how this show works, but man. Annoying only scratches the surface. Please don't bring him back!

As for Koyla...I really like the character. Wraith aside (who are more amorphous bad guys as opposed to a name for the face that'll really make them the arc of the show) Koyla was fantastic! He was evil, unapologetic, and kept coming back. (Ok, and I love the actor, too. ) Other than extortion and the fact they kept coming back to do it, he had very little interest in Atlantis itself. He wanted to rule the Genii. And kill Sheppard. To do that, he wanted the supplies and weapons of Atlantis. It was never personal. Except for Sheppard, but I never really felt that from Koyla's POV, only (rarely) Sheppard's.

They killed a great character off for no real reason and no emotion from Sheppard. I'm going to miss him.

Posted by: ancient01 Apr 29th 2007, 3:39 PM

I always felt that Lucious was a little too "culture specific" for a Pegasus character. He just didn't fit. Comic relief is one thing, but that's a little extreme. Hopefully we've seen that last of him...

Posted by: Revan Apr 29th 2007, 5:14 PM

How is Lucius "culture-specific?" I mean, I always just considered him an over-inflated bladder full of hot air.

Posted by: Parmenides Apr 29th 2007, 5:31 PM

I can sort of of see what you mean - he did seem very much like a terrestrial con-man, and not particularly alien. I don't think the accent helped.

Posted by: Revan Apr 29th 2007, 5:45 PM

Why do we assume humans would be less gullible on other planets? I would imagine conning humans is relatively the same all over the galaxy.

Posted by: Janos Apr 30th 2007, 12:25 AM

How exactly is it that water passes through Lucius' shield when McKay was in danger of starving to death because he couldn't eat or drink when he had the same shield on?

Posted by: Revan Apr 30th 2007, 12:58 AM

Air passes through, but there isn't any air inside the shield, so breathing underwater is impossible. Lucius wasn't in danger of drowning, just asphixiation...

Did he get wet, because he shouldn't have... I forget.

Posted by: Dafmeister Apr 30th 2007, 3:17 AM

M&M wrote this episode so we know the main reason why there are inconsistancies.

Posted by: KillerMarv Apr 30th 2007, 9:12 AM

No, he didn't get wet. He was quite dry.



Fortunately, it wasn't the case here. There is no inconsistency, water didn't pass through his shield.

Posted by: Shylodog Apr 30th 2007, 10:23 AM

But there is an inconsistancy. How were they able to make him bend over? If they were able to make him bend over, then the load that was dropped on him would have made him fall down. Or when Ronin hit him, he would have fallen back. Or when the other bad guys attempted to attack him, again he would have been pushed around a bit. But he wasn't, it was as if nothing affected him.

Of course, I'm not gonna really nitpick this, since without it, we wouldn't have the dramitc effect of Lucius suffocating.

Posted by: Revan Apr 30th 2007, 10:34 AM

The shield had inertial dampeners. That is why McKay falling from the balcony and getting punched had little or no effect.

Lucius wasn't hit hard, he was manhandled, which isn't a higher velocity impact.

Posted by: KillerMarv Apr 30th 2007, 10:46 AM

They were able to bend him because force cannot be ignored. His skin wouldn't feel how he is bent over, but the force of any push shouldn't be ignored. That added with what Revan just said should explain it all.

Posted by: Revan Apr 30th 2007, 11:05 AM

Well being pushed isn't inherently detrimental to one's health. The shield protects against harmful attacks... i.e. high velocity impacts (falls, trains, cars, bullets) and high energy discharges (weapons, that energy draining gaseous creature thing). It also keeps everything out... it is a barrier between oneself and the outside world, exempting non-harmful air molecules (gotta breathe to live).

They were just holding him, which isn't really an attack.

Posted by: Shylodog Apr 30th 2007, 11:16 AM

While this probably makes immense sense to you rocket scientists, can you understand where those of us laymen are getting lost in translation? You say he can be bent over into a bucket, because force cannot be denied, however why wasn't he forced into a prove position (albeit physically uninjured) by that heavy load that was dropped on his head. It's the same type of physical force which should be acting upon the shield in the same way, it's just varying degrees of force.

We already know this personal shield is not like the Goa'uld one where slow moving obects can pass through, so my point is that (being the layman that I am) I cannot understand why a small force against the force field would have a greater effect on the protected than the greater force.

I mean, ultimately I have the answer: dramatic effect in a scifi show.

Posted by: Dafmeister Apr 30th 2007, 11:39 AM

If they were able to move Lucius while his shield was active, why didn't McKay move when Sheppard punched him while his shield was active back in season 2? The shield does not dictate what the person does, it responds to the person using it. Someone forcing Lucius to move should not have had any effect as they were not physically moving Lucius.

Posted by: Parmenides Apr 30th 2007, 1:38 PM

It was just the way he talked, and the expressions he used. He wouldn't have seemed out of place in, say, New York, and given that he's supposed to have grown up on an alien world, the similarity shouldn't really be there.

Posted by: KillerMarv Apr 30th 2007, 1:57 PM

Like Revan said. It is indeed the same type of physical force, but the velocity it acts with is much bigger. Lucius was grabbed. It's just like putting him in a box and throwing him in the water. Even if the shield would normally protect from the walls of the box, it wouldn't have any choice but to follow their action. The hand of the thug pushed the shield, which dragged Lucius along.

Posted by: IndyJan Apr 30th 2007, 1:58 PM

You know when I first heard that Richard Kind was going to be on the show, I said, "Oh no, he will ruin it. He is a terrible actor and always plays the same type of irritant." Well the first episode proved me correct and this one didn't change my mind at all. Out of all the characters they could have return, why this one?

Then they kill off Koyla, who, as I said from the beginning, the Genii would make a good "bad" guy, or enemy, now he is gone. And we are left with Lucius.

Why aren't the SGA people concerned that Lucius "perused" everything on Atlantis and has that information? I know that I would be majorly concerned that he has the knowledge that they wouldn't want to fall into certain hands. Stupid M&M! Once again, they have given us a totally wasteful, useless and unentertaining episode.

Posted by: Dafmeister Apr 30th 2007, 2:21 PM

Given that in his own eyes Mallozzi believes he can do no wrong when it comes to writing episodes, I wouldn't be suprised to see another M&M episode in season 4 with Lucius as the antagonist.

Posted by: Janos Apr 30th 2007, 4:24 PM

But they only dunked his head in the water.....

That's like what... 20% of the total shield area? Even if there was no air around his head, there should have been plenty of air coming into the shield all around the rest of his body...

Posted by: KillerMarv Apr 30th 2007, 4:43 PM

It depends how far the shield is from the skin. It would be easy for him to breathe even if there is no space at all. But with no space at all, air couldn't circulate under the shield.

Posted by: Revan Apr 30th 2007, 5:51 PM

Technology that advanced would have to differentiate between a hug and a baseball bat, to conserve energy, and to react in a protective manner.

Getting hit by a bus, you would get thrown, but not injured... it is all in how the technology absorbs the blow. You can't deny the kinetic energy of a moving bus, but the inertial dampener can soften the effects inside the protected area.

Posted by: Janos Apr 30th 2007, 6:37 PM

Well, look at his arm. His elbow is bent out in a Peter Pan stance. And the shield covers all the space between his elbow and his side.

So, it obviously has enough space between him and the shield to provide air if just his head is underwater.

Posted by: KillerMarv Apr 30th 2007, 6:48 PM

Well now... This could all be a mistake made by the CGI fellows... Or you could be right, and I need to go to bed.

Posted by: IndyJan Apr 30th 2007, 9:20 PM

Okay when Rodney had one during season 1, no one could touch him. This time, no one could touch Lucius at the beginning, so how the heck did they get a hold of his neck and be able to dunk his head? This makes no sense, but then once again, it's M & M!

Posted by: Revan May 1st 2007, 1:25 AM

I see the shield covering his arm and his torso, with empty space in between... or am I wrong?

Posted by: Janos May 1st 2007, 1:34 AM

I was looking at it earlier... I swear I can see a green tint to the space...

But even if there's not, you can see the edge of the shield is away from the edge of his body.

You can see where his elbow is in that pic, and if you try to fit that in with where his hand is, there's too much shield for it being right against him.

Posted by: Revan May 1st 2007, 1:46 AM

Well the shield couldn't be directly on his skin... wouldn't do him much good...

Posted by: JTMAG1 May 1st 2007, 9:25 AM

Exactly, you would need some space for the dampening effect.

Posted by: Janos May 1st 2007, 11:40 AM

Which means there should have been plenty of space throughout the other 80% of his shield to provide him oxygen when the 20% or so of his head was under water.

Posted by: KillerMarv May 1st 2007, 12:28 PM

Not necessarily. We know that air enters the shield, but what stops us from saying it can't get out as well. It would be impossible for air to get to his submerged head, if it would simply enter the shield and get out immediately after that.

Posted by: Janos May 1st 2007, 3:47 PM

Diffusion.


If air gets in, it wouldn't follow a straight path out. Air's a fluid and it would diffuse through open space. Air would be entering and exiting all the time (otherwise he'd have CO2 poisoning). So the CO2 and Oxygen in the air would diffuse in the free space between the shield and his body.

Posted by: Revan May 1st 2007, 6:14 PM

The shield doesn't block air. But then, he was freaking out pretty nicely, so Lucius might not have been trying to breathe... he was a bit dull.

Posted by: bostjan91 Aug 19th 2007, 2:39 PM

I think that this is a most possible explanation.
P.S.: Why didn't they get rid of that guy, he's only makeing trouble.

Posted by: Dafmeister Aug 19th 2007, 4:16 PM

The Atlantis team don't go around killing the annoying guys, just the bad guys. I wish he had been killed but it pretty much would have been murder.

Posted by: KillerMarv Aug 19th 2007, 4:19 PM

But they can still pretty much "kill" him. By not showing him ever again... And it won't be murder.

Posted by: Dafmeister Aug 19th 2007, 4:29 PM

True but I would have prefered Lucius suffered a physical death rather than a metaphorical death.

Posted by: bostjan91 Aug 20th 2007, 2:21 AM

I didn't think that way, just do something that they have no problem with him again