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Posted by: Arcady Jan 11th 2006, 6:36 PM

Season 2, Episode 18 - Michael

Air Dates:
CA: Jan. 16, 8 PM (TMN)
US: Feb. 24, 9 PM (Sci Fi Channel)
UK: Mar. 1, 8 PM (Sky One)

A amnesiac young Lieutenant makes a shocking discovery about himself: He is a Wraith transformed by a drug created by Dr. Beckett.

http://www.sg1archive.com/atlantis/s2.shtml#218 | http://www.sg1archive.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=12646 | http://www.sg1archive.com/teasers/a218.html

(This topic is for people who have seen the episode to discuss it. If you don't want to be spoiled, don't read this topic.)

Posted by: Auntie Em! Jan 16th 2006, 8:48 PM

I like the fact that I have not seen to many spoilers on this episode. Makes it more of a mystery to me!

The cafeteria scene with McKay..... McKay really is not a good liar at all! Also with the cafe. It looks almost like a SGC one and the airman in white is the same one who made the face when McKay in a SG1 episode goes "Is there lemon on this chicken" and the guy went "It's Lemonchicken"

I think this is a well written episode. Binder does not do to badly!

NICE CGI image of the fog surrounded Atlantis. Nice to see a different view of it other than the sun soaked version of it.

They have an alpha site? I knew at one time they were looking for a site but since when did they actually set one up?

I feel sorry for Michael and for Dr Beckett!

My thing with this is why did they not build into his brain some kind of fail-safe to be triggered in the event that he attempted to escape?

Good episode over all! Though, it ended quite abruptly and they got away at the end way to easily.

Posted by: Cons Jan 17th 2006, 11:25 AM

good episode overall.
i was also thinking that they should have had a failsafe put in him like the goa'old hybrid girl who the NID cloned did.


side topic but this is really p***ing me off, a buble keeps coming up from my tool bar say "your computer is infected". i found out its malware trying to trick you but i cant remove it. i have scanned it with adawre, spydoctor and avg.
any thoughts.

dave

Posted by: alterantian Jan 17th 2006, 12:32 PM

This episode was a good introduction of Micheal who will be playing in the next upcoming episodes. But now the wraith know about atlantis and the retrovirus, sounds exciting.

overall it was good.

Posted by: VectorDP Jan 17th 2006, 1:55 PM

I found some software that I have been using for a while that seems to work well. Here is the site:

http://www.safer-networking.org/en/download/

It is free but the author asks for donations to keep the update going.
Hope this helps.

Posted by: Cha'Lok Jan 17th 2006, 2:26 PM

Pretty good episode! I give it a 7.8/10. I really liked the ending, it just makes the episode more a part of the whole season instead of an episode on its self. I was starting to feel there was hardly a story arc (that's what it's called right?). I liked the suspense that everybody knew what was going on, except poor Michael. Finally Weir did something against Sheppards will, anybody thinks this was done intentionatly (sp?) by the writers because a lot of people felt like Sheppard was in charge? Especially because of the look on Sheppards face. Hated Ronan again, what did he add to this episode? Not much if anything at all! If they replaced him with some soldier I wouldn't have noticed.

Oh and yay for more firepower, can't wait to see what they come up with

Posted by: Auntie Em! Jan 17th 2006, 2:42 PM

Cons go to the off topic section in the computer section. There is a thread called keeping your computer clean. Post a post on it and I am sure lots will help you with it if the site someone here posted here does not work.

I liked Ronon here. For once his aggressive style was correct and everyone else was wrong.

Why did the SF keep calling him Lt and why did one have his back to Michael? With a pistol. They should only have had the other guns that stun so if he did get aggressive he could not kill someone. I mean of course after Michael realized who he was. They should have become more strict with protocol and defensive. They seemed a little relaxed for having such a potentially deadly prisoner.

Posted by: danac Jan 17th 2006, 3:59 PM

Hi,i'm a noob here so don't be too harsh on me...In my opinion if they really had the 2nd ZPM (from "Coup d'Etat") up and running they'll be able to sink the city again,just buying the time for cavalry arriving .

Posted by: Raxor Jan 17th 2006, 4:21 PM

shite ep, so nothing more to say
*

a snooze fest and i never really cared for trip
only good part was the set up for the next ep

Posted by: gabor Jan 17th 2006, 6:17 PM

it was terrible.

not the story of the episode. the story was very interesting.

but it was terrible to see those characters to do such a wrong wrong wrong wrong thing.

i think it is too arrogant to think that the humans as beings are so much better than the wraith. i am not saying that they should not fight them. they should. and kill those that attack them. but to convert them to humans... for me it does not seem any better than death... you loose your body, you lose also your memories, which in my definition means you lose your personality. what does remain there? nothing but an empty body. it's hypocritical to think that you are not killing him. you are. and you're making his body fight against what he believed in.

well, if they would not have any other way, then it's something else. but i'm sure it's easier to kill them than to convert them. after all, they have to get somehow this magic transormation potion onto the hive ships. if they are able to do that, they could just send some nuclear bombs.

i waited during the whole episode, that at some point someone realizes that they were wrong. but NOONE decided so (except the wraith-guy ;)... even the doctor was willing to continue this "experiment"...the DOCTOR! where is his hippocratic oath?!??!

Posted by: Dafmeister Jan 17th 2006, 7:37 PM

McKay said in season 1 that he had no idea how the Ancients submerged the city. So it is unlikely that they would be able to take it beneath the surface even if they did have another ZPM.

Posted by: Aussie_Bloke Jan 17th 2006, 8:22 PM

Where can im find a transcript of this episode?

Posted by: Auntie Em! Jan 17th 2006, 10:23 PM

Welcome to the forum. First off though, your not a n00b you are a newbie. n00b is a nasty horrible person who knows the rules but does not care and does what they want. A newbie is a nice new person just learning the ropes!

Posted by: Atlantians Jan 17th 2006, 10:57 PM

Actually, you are describing a "Inexperienced [Poster, Forum Member, Player, or other occupation]".
A N00B, n00b, N00b, n00B, nOOb, NOOB, NooB, Noob, NOOb, nOOB, nOOB, Nub, Nube, or other version thereof is a derogatory term reffering to somone who is new, or inexperienced at whatever occupation.
A person who knows the rules and acts like they don't is "n00bish[or other variation of the term 'n00b']", that is: To act like a n00b[or other variation of the term 'n00b'].

A Newbie is a playful nickname given to a ""Inexperienced [Poster, Forum Member, Player, or other occupation]".



PS:(On Topic) Can't wait to see the episode myself.

But anyway: How was the acting of the person who played Michael?

Posted by: ziostilon Jan 17th 2006, 11:29 PM

It was like one of the best episode of the season, with all the drama and stuff.
But i have to say the writers aren't putting that much effort to the ending of the episode. They just wanted Michael to leave to another world and contact the wraith bout' Atlantis. So they can have another Siege and a cliffhanger at the end of the season.
You've got to say if they ever want to get any awards they really have to make a firmer storyline, the basic part was good. but when it came to securing Michael in the offworld base it wasn't too good, my guess is because the writers had to finish up the episode cause they still have some stuff to put in and there's probably only 15 minutes or so left.
So #1: It doesn't seem like anybody was placed outside the medical tent Michael was in, or else they would've at least talked bout' it
#2: There were only two guards, I repeat TWO guards at the gate, c'mon. When you're escorting Saddam Hussein, u had more than two guards standing-by. The guards at the Alpha Base had with them a P-90 and that was it. Michael is way stronger and more dangerous than Saddam Hussein.
Second of all, there Alpha Base' Gate is out in the woods of nowhere. Back-then in SG-1' Alpha Base (the one that got destroyed in Season 7), their gate was very clear out in the open and they had more people guarding it. The weapons the guards had were way more powerful. But then u got to think back, the guards at Atlantis' gate were merly soldiers with a P-90. While the guys back in the SGC had big helmets, long rail guns and all that. Why didn't they just use the rail guns that the USMC brought with them in "The Siege Pt.2"?

Now let's get back on topic

#3. From what i remember in "The ties that Blind" of SG-1 Season 9, the government or was it the International Committee said more money would be spent on Atlantis rather than the SGC. I don't know if that has been changed after the ORI Plague.
But what I'm saying is, shouldn't the Atlantis Off-World Base be more advanced then just a few tents if they had a bigger budget than the SGC. Bump up their security.
#4. The only reason that I can think of why the gate is in the middle of nowhere in the forest is because they didn't want people to know this was there Alpha Site. So security wouldn't be very visible around the gate. But if u don't want security to be visible. Then build a little post near the gate, which is covered up, so when bad guys are coming through u can alert the Alpha Site saying their location has been compromised and they can evacuate without being detected or killed.
#5. My conclusion is, if they were really part of the USMC, and Lt. Colonel Sheppard was actually a Lt. Colonel, then they would've at least bumped up security some sort of way, esp. around the gate. Pull one of the gate's crystal, just like what Lt. Ford did back in "The Lost Boys" to make it so the only address they can dial is Atlantis.

So In conclusion, if the writers really want the military to be part of the expedition they should really know how a normal Lt. Colonel would think

Posted by: Auntie Em! Jan 17th 2006, 11:52 PM

See you just shown your a n00b Atlantian that is the kind of sh*t that people yell at you for. Get over yourself will you. Please!

Also read the freaking rules you are not allowed to post here just to say you cannot wait to see the episode. Persist and I will report your ass for spamming!

Posted by: Atlantians Jan 18th 2006, 12:53 AM

Geeze. This is why I like the America's Army Forum. Everyone is laid back and jokes around. You on the other hand are being excessively rude.

Get over my self? What are you talking about? I was joking about the term noob. How is that being full of my self? You are the one being full of pride. You are the one acting like a jerk. Not me. And an FYI: You were the first one to post something off topic.

Furthermore I did not just say "I can't wait", I also asked about how the actor (one of the main characters on "Enterprise") did in the episode.

I was asking about his acting to then comment about this spoiler... but I forgot to add that comment.
So come on, there is no reason for you to act so stuck up and self-righteous. And BTW: This has been annoying me for a long time but I never decided to mention it: It is Atlantians. Not Atlantian. I figured it was a typo the first few times you did it... but now it seems that you simply have forgoten the 'S'.

Posted by: Aussie_Bloke Jan 18th 2006, 2:37 AM

look out.... I can sense another long-winded Atlantians argument brewing.....

Anyway guys I havnt seen the episode but by the sounds of it....it reveals that Atlantis has an Alpha site, the Wraith now know that we didnt die in Seige pt 3, Becket's virus was a success and Wraith now has knowledge of our weapons, tactics etc etc...

Just wondering if Michael was made aware of the Asgard helping us out...maybe if the wraith new about that...they may think twice about venturing out past their galaxy when and if they get the means to do so....???

Posted by: Raxor Jan 18th 2006, 6:57 AM

em and atlantis, stop posting useless crap in an episode discussion thread, resolve it over pm or just not say anything
and get back to the discussion

Posted by: ted_simple Jan 18th 2006, 9:38 AM

I completely agree. That whole topic is wrong. Moral has never been so low on Stargate. I'm so disappointed. Think back a few episodes when Ronin threatened Cavanaugh (ponytail guy), Weir admitted she had crossed a line there. The writers are not so desensitized that they don't realize questionable moral. It's just they comment it with a few lines, but calling the problem by its name does not solve it. They toss it aside and go on with shitty writing.

The whole "he killed a man" argumentation is so flawed. That guard had a deathwith. What do you do when threatened with a gun and asked to put your weapon down? Right, you spin around 180 degrees and fire your weapon. Duh. Where did he get his training. I suppose he could've thought the untrustworthy Wraith would kill him anyway - my only explanation which adds some logic to his rushed assault.

The reasoning why to move him to the Alpha Site is also beyond me. Fear of him breaking free and signalling the Wraith from Atlantis? Yep, better let him escape (which is way easier on that wooden planet), so he can brief the Wraith in detail!

Michael did also act too human in the beginning of the episode. He seemed to have good manners and be colloquial. That doesn't fit in my profile of a rude Wraith, but I could be wrong.

Other than that, the plot device itself (Wraith struggles with his new identity) wasn't so bad. The idea is good. However, I would have preferred it so much if we had achieved the conversion by aid from some alien civilisation - I can't imagine for my life that our medical knowledge has suddenly advanced so much. Bio-engineer a retro-virus. Right. What's next? The anti-aging pill? No, almost seems too easy in comparison. That whole "Dr Beckett is the best doctor in two galaxies" development leaves a noxious taste.

Posted by: Cha'Lok Jan 18th 2006, 10:55 AM

Very true. I'm studying life sciences and will do medical research when I'm done with my education and let me tell you that DNA manipulation on the scale that Beckett did is at least tens of years in to the future. And that's being optimistic. There have been experimental drugs based on genetic manipulation but the results were not so good; people died. Anyway, it doesn't bother me that much because it's still science fiction. But it would be nice if they didn't stray too far from the realm of reality

Posted by: Auntie Em! Jan 18th 2006, 11:07 AM

There are a lot of plot holes in the episode.

Ted I think from all the amount of CDs they have with the transitioning of him that it must have taken a while. I think it was meant to show the passing of time. So it was quite a while. They could have done some occupational therapy with him as he drew closure to his human form.

I guess the security was the red shirt. I just wish they could make it more realistic. So now, not only do you show him all of Atlantis etc, you move him to your back up escape route and show him that exists. A place that is not more secure but much less secure. Dumbasses!

Posted by: stargate loyal fan Jan 18th 2006, 11:40 AM

what does everyone think of the new defence plan and more firepower, any idea what it could be???? more weapons from asgard?? help from genii?

Posted by: ted_simple Jan 18th 2006, 11:45 AM

I'm beginning to deny the current "revelation" of Atlantis ever happened. Then again, I also denied the plain cloaking trick in Siege Pt. III could have worked... so I guess that evens each other out! I am mentally already back at that point in the beginning of the season, the predicament is pretty much the same again... if I am to interpret these cirumstances on a symbolic level, they pretty much stand for the quality of the episodes in between: "Not...moved...forward....one....bit"

Posted by: Dutch Anubis Jan 18th 2006, 3:05 PM

Great Episode, it's starting to build up for a great climax in the season finale. Also it poses some ethical questions: What's allowed during a war, and when do you cross the line and are you being just as cruel as the opposition? Good thing to think about this in these times...

Posted by: Gebosowulo Jan 18th 2006, 5:28 PM

What an awful episode. The acting was alright and I think that Connor Trinneer playing Michael was better here then in his role as chief engineer "Trip" in the Enterprise series; still the writing was unforgivable.

Gene therapy causing just the right, generalized dissociative, amnesia, so the guy can still walk, talk, remember wraith schematics, but has no idea what he is? Yeah, right. Not contrived at all. And they could not have made up any other, more plausible, explanation either.

The ethical issue, which Weir is usually concerned about: in full knowledge that the treatment completely erazes the personal identity of the subject, they still want to deploy it as a biological weapon? Do they think that by this way they will have more soldiers to put into the field? As cannon fodder perhaps?

Now Michael generally has a point when he is upset about the hypocrisy, but when he asks Teyla exactly why he might be better of as a human, she just stands there gawking. Ahem. So, noone actually thinks that it is a wee bit uncomfortable to have the dietary requirement of painfully draining humans of their life? Oh, what a stupid point, no sense in telling him comforting stuff like that.

But the worst was still to come: after knowing that little Michael is bend on escape, they obviously want to quell any chance of escape and keep him from gathering more intelligence. Now, how to go about this? Of course! Let's send him to the alpha site we need to keep secret at all cost. This way, he will also have no trouble at all to reach the gate and contact his buddies. Oh, and let's be so kind and make sure he has his privacy: no guards in the tent where he is kept in.

Of course, Ronon never manages to shoot him, though there is no lack of trying, but this at least is standard fare: fictional marksmanship is, at any given point, precisely as good, or bad, as the storyline dictates.

I realize that an episode like this might have been needed to move the overall storyline along, but all the above mistakes could have been avoided with a little common sense. Do they not have people proofreading the scripts before they shoot them?

Awful.

Posted by: Mental Case Jan 18th 2006, 8:08 PM

I thought like others that episode was pretty bad, and from the beggining I thought they were mad even when I thought it was just a captured human to let him know that stuff. I mean the wraith coulda re-written his memory and planted him as a spy to gain intel if needs be. So for me it was somewhat of a relevation that he was a wraith, but in the end I knew one thing: he would give away information. The only part I didn't know from the start was the wraith stuff.

Was quite predictable and seemed so stupid to leave him alone in a room with someone.

I've really started to feel more and more dissatisfied with atlantis. The first half was mildly enjoyable but second they had lots of "oh no!" type episodes that seemed fairly dull and uninteresting, or if they were interesting they just seemed.. odd (like I kinda liked that cloned atlantis one but the fact there was another atlantis felt just odd). Seem to be going too much for cliffhangers though and less for interesting locales/events in a few too many episodes.

Posted by: UltimateW Jan 18th 2006, 8:22 PM

What worried me was the mindcontrol over Teyla.

I dont get it either the part of moving him to the Alpha site, at least not with some armed guards no matter what.

I like the episode, looking forward to the clifhanger :P (nooot, clifhangers are evil!)

Posted by: Yamarin Jan 19th 2006, 9:17 PM

at least they are headed towards moving the storyline forwards...finally

Posted by: Ilzy Jan 20th 2006, 4:08 PM

Considering that the comments here lean either on the "great" or "terrible" side this episode was a good one as it didn't leave most people indifferent

I pretty much liked the episode, and it was about time the Wraith found out that Atlantis still exists because the season finale is just 2 episodes away! It nicely continued the "Wraith transformation" storyline that was introduced a while ago and made people think about the moral of such act. Who is to judge the best form of life after all? I don't think that the episode was bad from that moral point of view because giving straight answers is never the best way to deal with such questions, the audience has to decide for themselves. Both Teyla and Ronan had different reasons for their choice of action and I'm not sure yet which one of them I agree more with.

And why do you people dwell on the plot holes so much? There would be no story if everyone did the right thing and all risks would have been taken care of! Just accept it as necessary for the general storyline and enjoy the episode the way it is!

Posted by: Gebosowulo Jan 21st 2006, 4:16 PM

Plot holes are really not so much of a problem; as long as they are not dead obvious

Posted by: zpm Jan 22nd 2006, 6:38 PM

Its a city not a yo-yo!

Posted by: BarryMel Jan 24th 2006, 2:38 PM

i just watched this episode, was a good one but this is funny :





the first picture is in the room, the second is what they see on monitors.....

in the room the laptop is closed and on the monitors its open

Posted by: Auntie Em! Jan 26th 2006, 9:45 PM

In the one to the side there is a cowboy hat in place of the computer and Michael is away from the desk.

Posted by: Radagast Jan 26th 2006, 9:57 PM

The overall story in this episode is actually very good.

--- HOWEVER ---

The implementation of that story has got to be just about the worst Atlantis if not worst Stargate episode ever!

Lt. Col. (supposedly) Mitchell needs a demotion back to say, Cadet so he can learn how to run a secure site.

The whole Alpha site made absolutely no sense... the city is so big surely there's somewhere they can put him that's secure. Especially with having to move all that medical equipment to the other site.

I never understood why the alpha sites never have irises?

The only way Dr Beckett could do this with his oath is if he actually believed he was helping the patient.

How the heck did someone who barely remembered being a wraith actually control Tayla's actions?

One thing about this episode is it gave us a really really good impression of just how BIG Ronan is though....

Oh yeah, why did that SF's vest not stop the bullets when he was shot with a pistol? They really should stop carrying pistols around they seem to have enough stunners.

More later maybe.

Posted by: Auntie Em! Jan 26th 2006, 10:06 PM

None of the Stargate program SFs have bullet proof vests because if they got hit with a blast it would cook them alive. They have said this before.

Posted by: Atlantians Jan 26th 2006, 10:15 PM

Note on the Wraith dream part of the episode:

It was identical to Captain Picard's dream aboard the Enterprise-E at the begining of Star-Trek VIII: First Contact.

The whole Horrible "I'm on an evil ship" sequence, then the, "I'm awake... Ack! Mirror! No im not", then the "I'm really awake and sweating".

Identical.

The plot of this episode seams similar in very slight part to Picard's.


Edit: Something else:

Those restraint he had on his wrists: I think I could have excaped from them.

They were not that tight. All I would have to do is slowly wiggle my hand around while I have it compressed tobgether and I would be able to inch my way out of one, then unbind the others.

Posted by: Radagast Jan 27th 2006, 2:35 PM

All the more reason to not standard-issue handguns around the base.

Posted by: Auntie Em! Jan 27th 2006, 10:17 PM

I agree. It was stupid for the SF's to have regular guns in that situation. It was a plot device but was a stupid and unbelievable one.

Posted by: Radagast Jan 29th 2006, 11:04 AM

Did you notice when they were escorting him up the stairs (why was the one guy in front anyway??) the guy up front is stepping up to the landing and the angle makes his gun's handgrip stick out right in front of Michael's face.

It's practically inviting him to shoot someone given that his hands are not bound.

Posted by: Jade Jan 30th 2006, 7:39 AM

I would have to say this is one of the worst episode of this season. It really didn't make sense for them to do this experiment in Atlantis, I mean they want to keep the Wraith from finding out Atlantis is still standing, Did they have no doubt that Dr Becketts's treatment might fail, and revealling Atlantis to a Wraith might be a very very very bad idea?

Should listen to John Sheppard, any military person in their right mind would not agree to that.

Hopefully this can lead to a good story for the season finale, but a Wraith becoming an allie of human, seriously doubt it Not an optimist

Posted by: Pitry Feb 3rd 2006, 5:35 PM

A shame I knew Michael is a Wraith. It'd prolly be much cooler to try and guess what everyone's problem was.

I disagree about the acting. I thought both Michael and Beckett were wonderful here. For a change, I don't even have much of a problem with Teyla. Ronon I still dislike. The "I'm a cool warrior" mantra doesn't work on me, not when it isn't accompanied by anything else. He needs a character, and he needs it fast. A little sense of humour won't kill him, either. Prolly do the char only good.

On the moral issues, I've despaired bitching, so I shan't. The fact I feel Atlantis is moraly bankrupt was voiced, time and again. The one good thing that comes out of it is that Beckett actually isn't the stereotypical scifi "I've taken an oath to save life" doctor, but fits himself to the moral bankrupcy of the entire team.

The guards was a bit of a glitch... But well, you win some, you lose some.
All in all an enjoyable 40 minutes, definitely helping keeping up with the better half of Atlantis this season. ;)

Posted by: HurricaneMB Feb 4th 2006, 12:15 AM

I agree. Scifi writers seem to be obsessed with retroviruses, and think they can just magically turn people into monsters in a matter of hours, and then be completely reversed by the end of the episode.

And the "best doctor in two galaxies" thing annoys me too. At least in the beginning, when they did the ATA gene therapy, it didn't work for over half the people they tried it on, which is more realistic. Now everything he does always works perfectly, which is too startrekky for my tastes.

Oh, and as a scientist and almost physician, I would have serious ethical concerns with that kind of experiment. And yeah, I get that people sometimes have to compromise their morals in wartime, but they didn't really address it, which was disappointing.

Still, despite my ranting, I liked the episode for the most part. Suspenseful and well-acted. And I like the actor who played Michael.

Posted by: PokeThePuddle Feb 10th 2006, 10:10 PM

wow... i didn't suspect michael was a wraith until ronan's mucho hostilities.

only 3 things ticks ronan off:
1. most important: WRAITH
2. power-hungry over-sexed underlings to some-random-kind-of master
...


Yes i can count:
3. Wraiths pretending to be human


hehe, Michael Kenmore... wtf kinda name is that... Its sounded bogus from the beginning... and its probably up there with names like John Smith and such.

Posted by: Pegasus Angel Feb 16th 2006, 9:37 AM

And the best bit was McKay in the cafe complaining that there was no blue jello!!!

Posted by: drstargate Feb 19th 2006, 4:30 AM

Posted by: drstargate Feb 19th 2006, 4:40 AM

Oh my god,

I love stargate atlantis and the idea of it very much but the writers sometimes piss me off so completely!!!! What a way to kill an otherwise potentially exciting sci-fi and god knows there aren't enough good ones out there.

This episode just made them look STUPID!

First of all, when did the atlantis crew become nazis? Nobody had a problem with their experimentation?? No ethical dillemmas? Are they that morally vacuous? Even I thought a medical doctor would have problems with this as it echoes the "research" that the nazis did in the last world war....the ends do not justify the means. I don't know but everytime I think these are honorable upstanding smart people to care about, the writers just make them look stupid and ethically challenged. It's like saying, hey, let's genetically alter all sharks/alligators/polar bears/tigers/etc just cos they eat us....stupid stupid stupid.

Secondly, when Michael escaped with Teyla, were they really surprised that the first thing they do is to get to a stargate??? C'mon, I'm sure a "smart" military man like Shepard would have thought "hey, they might escape through the gate....maybe we should head there first....." I know my dog would have thought that. but nooooo, let's just chase them through the woods instead of going straight to secure the gate. military genius he is obviously not.

LAZY!!! LAZY!! LAZY!!!

BAD WRITERS!!! They should be shot! c'mon people, let's not take too many leaps of logic and good sense.

Posted by: linda_lol Feb 24th 2006, 11:25 PM

This episode made me pissy.

I really liked Micheal, he was a blend of Jonas and Martouf. He was a nice guy, very sweet, and how do we treat him? Like trash. Honestly, he had changed and I don't blame him for what he did. In fact, I saw Atlantis as the enemy in this episode. I mean, how would you react if you found out you were tampered with and lied to? Gah.

And did anyone find it heart breaking to see him find out the truth? Eesh.

And uh, don't read spoilers people, they really ruin episodes (I am apparently a victim of it.)

9/10.

Posted by: Goa'uld Feb 24th 2006, 11:36 PM

This episode made no sense at all. In the episode where Sheppard wanted to test the drug that made people immune to the wraith, Dr. Weir got all mad, and said that it was against the Geneva Convention. In this episode, she orders them to change a wraith into a human, and she doesn't see anything wrong with it.

I also thought that it was stupid that from what they said at the end of this episode, the season finale is going to be exactly the same as The Seige, except they can't cloak the city. Also, where did the alpha site come from? It seemed like they just pulled it out of nowhere, and had no explanation of when or where it was built.

This episode gets a 2/10.

Posted by: xayeidemon Feb 25th 2006, 12:38 AM

Ethically, this was one of the worst things I've seen anyone on either SG shows do. I guess the Hippocratic Oath doesn't apply to the Pegasus Galaxy. I used to think that SG-1 had the market cornered on Let's Do Dumb Sh*t This Week ™, but the folks on Atlantis proved they can lay claims to the coveted title, too. I'm a scientist, and one of the first things they taught us in school was that you don't do crap like this. You don't do experiments on people (yes, the Wraith are people, too) without their prior consent. The medical and scientific communities learned this little lesson after WWII.

I only watched this episode for Connor Trinneer (whom, I adore), and I thought his acting was superb. He made Michael into someone you'd sympathize with, and considering how utterly deplorable the Atlantis folks' actions were, I didn't feel the least bit sorry when he went kamikaze on their asses. I kinda wished Teyla had been able to reason with Michael, but I'm also glad that he went back to his people, murderers though they are. No one had any right to experiment on him like that, I don't care how "bad" things get. If it's so bad, get the hell out of the Pegasus Galaxy. But OOPS! The Wraith probably know about Earth AND Atlantis now. Way to go, you compassionate assholes.

And I can't believe Teyla was the only one with serious doubts about all this. Beckett should have known better, and Weir should have never signed off on this "experiment." I can't get over how thoughtless they all were. That "this is war" crap is just being used as an excuse to commit crimes that are just as egregious as anything the Wraith have ever done.

Posted by: fan_83 Feb 25th 2006, 8:29 AM

als but its the human way... we all have such outstanding moral when we are all safe at home on out sofa.. but hte moment we find out something eat us for a living , all our morals go out the window...

humans are stupid.... we all have to live with it....

morals and ethics are a luxury that we can afford when we are doing well.... they are not a necessity

Posted by: Trudi~ Feb 25th 2006, 11:45 AM

Wow, I thought that this was a great episode. Everything on this Sci-fi Firday rocked. Michael was sweet, and a kind person. Ronon got on my nerves ALOT! What the heck was wrong with him!? I know he absolutly hates the wraith, and he has the right to...but uh gosh...the way he was acting was just like a wraith. Arrogant, aggressive, my goodness... Weird Ronon.


Teyla was awesome in this episode, she is so kind to want to be a friend of a former wraith. After all she has gone through, she still has kindess in her heart.


Weir and Sheppard were not in it that much, but when they were I enjoyed them. Mckay was great, and so was Beckett.


9/10

Posted by: tauri129 Feb 25th 2006, 12:16 PM

i did like this episode. it raised some really good ethical questions
i thought Connor Trinneer was reallly good as Michael; i really felt for him when he first found out he was a wraith. i definitely think that whole experiment was just wrong, doomed from the start. they never should have done that.
i dont think ronan was too aggressive, i think he was rightfully concerned about the fact that there was essentially a wraith loose in the city.

Posted by: spookwomann Feb 25th 2006, 4:58 PM

When a drug is created here it goes through tests in a lab then it gets to the point of where it has to be tested on humans. The retro virus must have reached the point of it having to be tested it on a wraith.
The wraith are culling world's, they have done gene therapy on humans eg Tayla's telepathic abilities and now they are trying to get to earth. The stakes have been upped so everything has to be done to save planets with humans on them.
They are not actually killing the wraith, they are trying to get rid of the wraiths need to feed on humans, but my moral question is who has the right to tell another being how to live. We accept animals killing or eating their young in nature, so is there any real difference in the wraith feeding on humans.

Another reason why micheal could have been moved to the alpha site is out of sight out of mind. If something should happen he was to be killed, but they weren?t prepared for just how much he was starting to remember or feel. As he said he always felt the hunger. What else could have been going on with him.

Michael now knows what it is like to be human and he could use this as a weapon.

Posted by: gabor Feb 25th 2006, 5:08 PM

maybe the wraith does not die, but his memories (his identity) is erased, and his body is completely changed. so he lost his body and also his identity.

in my interpretation that means that the original being was destroyed (killed)

(i understand that your opinion is basically the same as mine, only wanted to point out this minor issue)

Posted by: spookwomann Feb 25th 2006, 5:45 PM

in my interpretation that means that the original being was destroyed (killed)

(i understand that your opinion is basically the same as mine, only wanted to point out this minor issue)
[/quote]

Bastage! lol I know what you mean.
it's kinda like giving someone electric shock treatment, their personality is changed and some may say that is like killing a person. But there is also the side where the body is still alive.
Its a tough area to argue. A person is not charged with murder if they injure another to the point where their origional personality is completey destroyed.

Posted by: LyaOfTheNox Feb 25th 2006, 11:00 PM

I was really dissapointed in this episode. When I first heard about it, I thought it had the potential to be really good, but it ended up just sucking. bleh. And there wasn't very much Mckay in this episode he only got what? 2 lines, and then that scene in the cafeteria (ha, which I loved-- Mckay can't lie to save his soul). Ha! it's a connection No Mckay=bad episode ;)

ummm, yeah there is. There are instances all the time where we tell people how to live. Just because something is one culture's way of life doesn't make it right-- in some cultures fathers kill their children, people own slaves, young kids are used as cheep labor-- that's their way of life, but that doesn't make it right, and some would even say we have an obligation to stop them. Saying Atlantis can't use this drug is like saying a rabbit shouldn't learn how to run faster to avoid a fox because it's the fox's way of life to eat it. Frankly, if you were being fed on by a wraith, you would wish you had some sort of weapon or defence to use against him. I may not have liked this episode, but I don't see why people are making a big moral delema out of Atlantis's attempt to stop the Wraith from eating everyone in two galixies.

Posted by: IndyJan Feb 25th 2006, 11:20 PM

I knew from this forum that Michael was a Wraith. But I must say, even knowing that, I was looking for hints about it. I could find none. What I saw was, "somthing is not right, something is off." But no way did I get a feeling that he was a Wraith.

I love CT! He did a bang up job in this role. His acting was superb. Did anyone else pick up on the fact that when Michael did rebel and fight, he picked up a human weapon? And Shep and his men were using Wraith stunners. I thought that was a nice psyhological turn there.

I'm with Xay on this issue about them doing these medical experiments. It's wrong. Unfortunately, Weir and her people view them as animals, and nothing more. It's the same mentality that the Nazis had about the Jews. They are not human, so what?

Okay, the Wraith are going to kill them, but it doesn't give you the right to do what they did. I'm truly surprised that Beckett went along with this. Besides, even if it worked, which it appeared to, I'm with Ronon on this, they are still Wraith. That is not going to change.

So now Michael has the knowledge of Atlantis and they will be coming.

But it was a well written story and I did like it. I didn't see it as fluff or filler. Plus they finally gave Teyla something to do that wasn't fighting. They tapped into her Wraith connection because that is what Michael was able to pick up on.

Posted by: gabor Feb 26th 2006, 7:02 AM

since when is the earth-army's job to decide what is right and what is wrong?
i thought they are simply defending themselves.
this is a very very very big difference.

and...you are sure that everything we earthians do is right? what about the world wars? or problems regarding discriminations based on <insert random world like skin-color, religion>...was that all right?






they are not just stopping them. they are "changing" them...

i have nothing against inventing a chemical/biological weapon that KILLS them. they are at war, so soldiers kill soldiers. no problem.

but what i hate about this episode is that they hipocritically think/argue that they do something better, because they don't kill them, they just change them. they strip out the "evil" part, and leave in the "good" part. ?!?!?!?

but effectively they are killing them.

just think about it. what should be easier? :
a. find a chemical/biological weapon that kills wrait
b. find a chemical/biological weapon, that alters the wraiths body/mind into a human body/mind

i think #a is much easier to achieve.

so this is not about having a weapon to defend them. this is about respecting the life of intelligent beings.


so let me sum up this again:

fighting a war with the Wraith: ok
changing their race forcefully into something else: not ok

p.s: if Beckett&co thinks they are doing this right, why were Michael's memories erased/blocked? why were they hiding this information from Michael? why didn't they just explain it to him?

Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent.....(asimov)

Posted by: blackbelt83 Feb 27th 2006, 1:02 AM

I dint Think he was a wraith that was a surprize to me. I liked this ep. I think it is building up to A big finally they are going to have to do something about atlantis eithere submerge it again wich rodney couldent do at the end of season one or they are going to have to move it in that case they will need two more zpm's dint sound like they could do it with two but the wraith are not going to fall for the same trick again. and they will move on atlantis fast to. This is going to be a good season finally.

Posted by: I'm a janitor at the SGC 715 Feb 28th 2006, 3:51 AM

i thought it was an ok episode...kind of dark though...kind of like a frankenstien type episode

concerning the ethical issue- if they used the retro virus on that girl wraith in the episode Instinct it would have been ethically fine because she wanted to be human and not feed on them. the episode said that when she was young she ate like a human and latter as she would age the aratis bug gene would have more of an influence on her and turn her fully into a wraith...and since when the wraith are fully grown they are basically pure evil and so thats why it would have been fine to use the retro virus on her when she was young because when she was young she was closer to being human.....the retrovirus didnt work on micheal because he was already a fully grown wraith and the aratis bug gene part of him had fully turned him into a fully grown wraith and made him pure evil and so he wasnt able to shake those wraith instints when he was human.

Now in Dr. Weirs mind and Dr. Beckette's i think they see the aratis bug gene as no different than a guald symbiote inside a human being becuase the aratis bugs long ago bit the humans and the changed the humans into the wraith. and so all they were trying to do was to get the evil bug gene out of micheal which is the same thing they were trying to do for that wraith girl in the episode Instinct....and so thats why i have a hard time seeing dr. weir and dr. beckette as the bad guys in this episode...alot of people said they were and i can understand that but they arent.

dr. beckett should have been spending his time perfecting that drug we saw in the episode called Poisoning the Well...because if wraiths cant feed on humans anymore they will become extinct or they will start feeding on something else like cows

Posted by: Dafmeister Mar 1st 2006, 4:21 PM

The moral issue aside, this wasnt such a bad episode. IMO Teyla and Ronon were the only people on Atlantis that seemed to realise that transorming Michael into a Human was wrong. Like others have said, it suprises me how quickly Weir's moral stance could change given her reaction to McKay destroying a solar system in 'Trinity', yet it was ok for the Atlantis team to experiment on a Wraith.

One thing I noticed was that there must be a stylist in the city as they had time to give Michael highlights while he was unconscious.

Posted by: JC1 Mar 1st 2006, 6:50 PM

This was a strange episode and not a very good one. All of the characters didn't seem to be themselves, except for Ronan, who doesn't do much anyway.

Killing the Wraith in war is one thing. But capturing one, experimenting on him, turning it into a human and then telling he's better off, is wrong and very arrogant.

I would have thought Becket and Weir would object to such action and at the very least, Sheppard and Teyla would question it. But no, Becket requested it and Weir gave it her full approval.

And then after Micheal escapes, they all sit around and come to the realization that the Wraith will not only know about Atlantis, but will also have valuable intel from Micheal.
Luckily, Sheppard comes up with the revelation, "We're going to need more firepower." Surely this should have been the plan from the begining?

Posted by: chelle_b Mar 2nd 2006, 8:06 AM

Yeah, I also thought this episode seemed a little out of whack. Also, I guessed about 15 minutes into the show that Michael had been changed into a human from a wraith using the retrovirus. The way everyone was acting really shifty around Michael was a big clue, as was the wraith dreams and the fact that he told McKay he recognised the Wraith schematics he had on his computer. Maybe these were deliberately placed clues.

I am not going to go into my views on the ethical and moral issues raised in this episode (loads of people seemed have got it covered) cos I am on my lunch at work so don't have the time.

chelle_b

Posted by: shogi Mar 2nd 2006, 9:32 AM

I thought Shepard was told that the that the ZMP had been depleted in 'Coup d' Etat'?? 1 of the Genii had found in the past & had placed it into storage.

Posted by: Dafmeister Mar 2nd 2006, 9:47 AM

It was. He lied when he said it was the one that the Brotherhood took. Even if they had a second ZPM they still may not be able to submerge the city. They have no idea how much energy it takes and McKay said himself that he hadno idea how the city was submerged in the first place.

Posted by: shogi Mar 2nd 2006, 12:17 PM

Did anyone else find it strange how Michael knew exactly how to use the laptop??

Posted by: spookwomann Mar 2nd 2006, 3:47 PM

Ane how he knew what a cd was and where to put it.

Posted by: hobo_joe20 Mar 2nd 2006, 3:50 PM

You raise a good point. Maybe the wraith have their own versions of laptops?


That can be easily discovered just by looking at what other people do with those objects. Alot easier than figuring out how to work a laptop without previous exposure.

Posted by: spookwomann Mar 2nd 2006, 3:59 PM

What was it about 2 days on atlantis being "human" and becoming very handy at using a laptop etc......
Better than people putting phone cards into the floppy drive to get onto the internet i suppose.

Posted by: IndyJan Mar 3rd 2006, 1:54 AM

As far as the moral issues in this episode, in the March/April SG/Atlantis, Tori is quoted as questioning what Weir did in this one. She said Weir would never have made any decision like this in season 1. She says that this is a definite change for her character. She hopes that this darker side to Weir will be addressed in season 3. She said that there is no one on Atlantis that she can freely speak to about some of the decisions that she has to make simply because she is the leader and making those decisions. I guess it's lonely at the top.

Posted by: I'm a janitor at the SGC 715 Mar 3rd 2006, 2:11 AM

yeah her character sure has gotten darker this season....i mean in the episode critical mass she approved the use of torture....the season 1 weir i dont think would have done that (i think she use to be a hippy)....it was interesting she let ronon do the torture since he is an alien and not part of the geneva convention and so he wouldnt get in trouble and the SGA crew could all deny they approved it and say ronon did it on his own

Posted by: shogi Mar 28th 2006, 7:19 AM

Just 1 more query.......I know we use some kind of Universal Translator but is that for vocals only or does that also include, being able to read??

I say this because Michael saw the 1st few clips of the experiment & when he realised what might be happening, he looked at all the discs in 1 go & inserted the disc marked day 1.

If the translator does help you read as well as speak, then why can't we read Ancient??

Posted by: Christy Mar 31st 2006, 6:58 AM

I dont think it can help you read because of the language wouldnt be in your head type of thing...but i think most of the planets speak english anyway...like we cant understand it when say the Goul'd are talking.

Posted by: Alley Apr 2nd 2006, 9:42 AM

Dude i like this episode two, but what Michel does not see is that they saved him from sucking the life out of humans. But it is good that he left, he will play a big role in the next cople episodes =)
I LOVE MICHEL

Posted by: Sighfienerd Apr 2nd 2006, 5:17 PM

Hmmm. I think the point was that they are supposed to be "human", only accidentally mutated. If you look at it from that perspective, it's possible that the Atlantis team's actions could be justified in that they were attempting to heal a hurt that the Wraith had suffered to their genetic makeup - just as we try to heal hemophilia or MS or any other genetic anomaly.

Nice pick up on the switched use of weapons, Indy!

I really enjoyed Connor Trineer in this episode, and I hope we'll see more of Michael in the future. I also like the chemistry between Michael and Teyla - much more so than any of the forced combinations we've seen so far with her.

Posted by: Dafmeister Apr 2nd 2006, 5:52 PM

If you look at it from the Wraiths' perspective the Atlantis team are trying to wipe them out, in effect they are performing a genetic cleansing. The Wraith are a sentient race (ok they are an evil, sentient race) but that doesnt mean they can be wiped out by suing gene therapy.

Posted by: Sighfienerd Apr 2nd 2006, 6:06 PM

But they're not getting wiped out. They're simply reverting to their original, intended form. And if you think about it, the Atlantis team could actually be ensuring that their race will survive, since the Wraith have essentially culled the Pegasus galaxy of their only food source and therefore set the stage for their own extinction.

Posted by: thefirstone Apr 3rd 2006, 7:45 AM

maybe michael saw Dr. Beckett using one when he was being tested an maybe saw him put the cd into the drive when he was recording the data. just a thought.

Posted by: Sighfienerd Apr 3rd 2006, 6:32 PM

I'm not sure if this is really an issue. I think the Wraith have probably had sufficient dealings with the Atlantis team to have some knowledge of their technology. The Wraith are not stupid by any means. If Rodney and others have been able to glean at least a basic understanding of Wraith technology, I would certainly think the converse would be true as well - and Teyla definitely implied (while sparring) that Michael's knowledge had not been forgotten, just temporarily difficult to access.

Posted by: Mau Apr 16th 2006, 5:59 PM

In Stargate SG1, theres was a similar episode with the fitht and samantha carter, and in the next episodes, stargate sg1 payed for that mistake, but this episode went to far.
But lets not compare the 2 episodes.This one, is far worst and the evil "face" of this Stargate Atlantis team is on fire!I didn?t like it. No other episode, prepared or justified to the audience and to the stargate atlantis team for this kind of experience, so the moral "face" of this team it is now on the negative score. Now, for me they all are a bunch of hipocrates.

Other considerations (The so called team):
The caracter Weir, for me, is the worst character in the series. A lider should always be a strong lider. She is not!She only ask questions, and then yes or no.Buh!! Maybe you should try get her naked to get some interest!
The Ronin guy, is a good character, but please, he always doing things against the decisions of his team.No lider can?t allow this kind of actions.In this episode he went to far. Sheppart or Weir didn?t say or do nothing towars his actions.No lider can?t let this go.
Taila: Well, the agressivity in this character, most of the time just doesn?t fit on her. Shes makes the right questions, the right comments,i don?t know...if they tried to make a Tealc, well, no way dudes. Maybe, just maybe i prefer her as a lider instead of weir.
Sheppard: i like him, hes more agressive than oneil. I think he just need to get more "hand" on this team.
Mkay: the most interesting character on this show, but why he always on mission that required military training? the guy doesn?t fight, period! dont waste the time of this character.

Conclusion:
This episode proved what the last episodes are saying to us. This is a very weird team dudes. Very weird!

Posted by: J&S4Ever May 11th 2006, 10:07 PM

I caught this episode in the middle, so I was a bit confused, but after I saw the repeat I was so pissed. I totally agree with this. I was just shocked that they would actually experiement like this on a living sentient being. That fact that they are supposed to be human..Ancient...I don't get. In Rising the recording said they happened on a world where a terrible enemy slumbered. So they seeded the planet and left while the Wraith evolved to suck human life force...Oh that was a cool movie...and they didn't realize this? Is there a discussion thread for Wraith evolution?

Posted by: Samantha Carter 1013 Jun 27th 2006, 12:52 PM

Hi! first time in a forum and I'm kind of frustrated 'cause of this episode and the lack of people in my country who actually watch stargate, I have nobody to talk to so, the episode, I was really surprised that elizabeth had given permission to do this to michael, I have tha concept of Elizabeth being the really good good girl, never brake a rule kind of girl, and it just surprised me, I love how they are developing the character really, they are avoind the hammond style, but I'm still confused

Posted by: Captain Connor Jun 30th 2006, 9:09 AM

Ok... I'm about to broach a dangerous subject here... 'comparitive morality'.

The episode where Weir protests the 'Geneva Convention' approach, refers to an action that would lead to 1) the death of a large amount of human lives as the vaccine took hold, and 2) a larger number of deaths amongst the Wraith population as the biological agent wiped them out after attempting to feed. This situation uses both biological weapons and the potential act of genocide, which definitely comes in at the larger end of moral faux pas.

As to 'experimenting' on Michael, you could argue that what they were in fact trying to do was cure a genetic disease. At the core the Wraith are human, and that it is only the Wriath 'virus' that makes them the way they are. From Weirs' perspective the attempt to cure one Wraith, of the virus that makes him a monster, and to return him to his natural human state is somewhat akin to a risky heart operation. If it had proved a perminant solution the Wraith population could have been turned human, effectively removing the threat of culling and feeding, without resorting to the genoside the earlier episodes actions would have led to.

As I said, comparitive morality is dangerous territory, because how far is too far? And who decides what exactly is too far?

Posted by: Dafmeister Jun 30th 2006, 10:17 AM

The thing is though, they weren't trying to cure a virus in the Wraith. They Wraith did not evolve because of a virus, Iratus bug DNA and Human DNA mixed to produce them. A retrovirus was used to suppress the Iratus bug DNA not to cure a virus.
The arguement is that Weir had no right to perform those tests on Michael because he is an entirely different race. He was not an infected Human, he was a Wraith. As the episode showed, even after the retrovirus was used, Michael was still a Wraith depsite his outward appearance.

Posted by: Captain Connor Jun 30th 2006, 10:32 AM

True, true... however the thing here is perception. You're correct, I believe, however if the perception was that they were correcting something that should never have been, they may just have seen themselves as 'curing' the Wraith.

I imagine there is also a time factor to consider... you can only see so many killed, or fed on, before your moral outlook begins to change. As they move towards a more 'It's either them or us' mentality, you may see more questionable decisions. Ultimately it may come down to 'war to the knife'.

Posted by: Christy Jul 15th 2006, 8:12 AM

While I do not think it fair that they experiment on a living being I do not believe the code of conduct would be the same in the pegasus galaxy as they don't really have anyone to answer to. They'd probably put it down to scietific research...
As Weir explained it...originally the wraith were Iratus bugs and evolved when human dna merged with the bug...so all they're doing in reversing the evolution.

Posted by: Gate Jumper Jul 15th 2006, 8:30 AM

Easy Fella! The Atlantis team was just trying to help get rid of the Wriath, and it still could work.

Posted by: Dafmeister Jul 15th 2006, 9:53 AM

Atlantis is still governed by Earth so all the rules and regulations would still apply. Weir had no right to order experimenation on the Wraith.


Due to the fact it was evolution Weir had no right to assume she could reverse the evolution of the Wraith.
The Iratus bug and the Wraith both exist in Pegasus, the same way that Humans and primates do on Earth. What if an alien race came to Earth and decided that Humans weren't supposed to have evolved from primates and went about reversing Human evolution?

Posted by: IndyJan Jul 27th 2007, 2:45 AM

There are a number of issues with this episode.

For season 1, people were complaining that Weir couldn't make tough decisions. She was too wishy-washy. Well, guess what, she did make a tough call. Was it the correct call to make? In her mind and for the betterment and safety of her "people" and Atlantis, it was the correct call to make.

Morally, was it the correct call to make. IMO, absolutely not, why because as Daf has said Michael was a sentient being. He wasn't a lab experiment gone wrong. He didn't ask to be changed. He had a right to be as he was. He didn't want to change in anyway.

Knowing all that, if I had been in charge would I have made the decision that Weir did? You are darn tooting I would! You are no longer on Earth. You are fighting for your life. You need to find a way to stay alive. You are not killing this person, or even trying to eradicate their whole race. You are just trying to find a way to co-exist.