A serious discussion on enlightenment, Oma Desala, the monk, Orlin, Shifu and Daniel and what they have in common. I searched and could not find this matter in the forums - plenty of Oma=Ancient but this thread is not about that.

I had always thought of Oma as an alien, who just happened to make herself glowy and stuff. But I could never fit Shifu and Daniel (humans) into that - how can they "become alien".

But let's assume Oma/monk/Orlin were of some race (perhaps Ancients, but who cares it's irrelevant to this discussion). Now, they die and ascend (much as we would die and go to heaven and become angels????).

And from time to time they descend or take human form in order to interact with us. When they ascend again the "body" goes with them as it is only a perception/hologram if you will.

Daniel did die, should be no argument here, and he ascended. Watch Meridian closely - some light left the table, but it was not big enough to encompass his body, it was left behind. Daniel "went to heaven" so to speak and is now like Oma/monk/Orlin.

And that leaves Shifu, the Harsicis, who must be dead!!! He has to be in order to fit in with these others - there is no other way.

So, there we have it, a group of various aliens (human, harsicis, and a couple of others - perhaps Ancients??) congregating in "heaven". The point being these people are dead. The floaty beings themselves are NOT and CANNOT be Ancients/Furlings whatever.

Please someone pick this apart!!! I'm losing it here on this matter.

Because it is so clear it takes a long time to realise - as Oma teaches.

Personally, I think the journey to enlightenment is one of the more unbelievable story lines on Stargate. I can’t believe that it is possible to do a bit of thinking and rise to a “higher level”. If it was as easy as Daniel seem to make it, then we would all do it. Or at least, a large number of us. There would be floaty things everywhere. This departs from normal story lines that mostly attempt to base themselves around some scientific fact and leaps in a single bound to land firmly into the realm of “magic”.

Well, just my humble opinion!

I think that they were trying to borrow from Buddhism in the reaching an ascended state story line.

This isn't entirely new because there were references to such eastern religons in the episodes with the Haracisis child.

However, it seems as if they've skipped a few fundamental steps and thrown realism aside. IMHO I don't think Daniel's become alien - he's just reached enlightment. (minus the eight fold road)

Well, the writers may have sped things up with Daniel's ascension because Michael Shanks wanted off the show.

what if enlightenment was the ability to understand every thing - the human mind would not be able to process this so they need to ascend to a level where this would be possible therefore the body would not be needed. I dont think it's a case of reaching a higher plane of existance just a willingness to open your mind to other possibilities, and to do this you must be willing to let go of everything that holds to you to the one plane of existance (mainly this one) in order to experience others.

QUOTE

what if enlightenment was the ability to understand every thing

i think it is and you become all knowing

No..... Daniel said himself in Abyss that being ascended didn't mean you were all knowing or omnipotent.

Its another level of consiouseness...

You can be anywhere or anything. You dont limited to your own body, or this area of space and dimensions. And as LadyLuna correctly stated - it doesnt mean your all knowing. Although Im not sure about omnipotent, does that mean invincible?

There is one level of inconsistency, Daniel is able to communicate to Jack and Teal'c while he was ascended. Yet, the ascended guy (Orlin?) who visted Carter said he had to 'descend' in order to comminicate with Carter - hmm, must be a female thing

As I have said in a previous post, ascended are not aliens but a state you can become when you die. So Oma was an alien (or human) before she ascended. BTW ShiFu means Teacher in Chinese.

Actually ShiFu is more of a 'master' type term. Teacher is LaoShi. You wouldn't use ShiFu with a professor or a school teacher. It's a terms that Monks use to refer to their... I'm not sure what the english term is, but their superior to whom they are apprenticed is a more accurate term. In olden days that how apprentices refered to thier apprentice masters.

Yes. You are correct. Just us Hong Kong people dont actually use the term LaoShi anymore. ShiFu is still used though, but as you say, it is more of a Master context. I always thought of ShiFu as 'someone who teaches', thats where my interpretation came from, but you are absolutely correct.

QUOTE (Chrominium @ Feb 13 2003, 11:11 PM)

There is one level of inconsistency, Daniel is able to communicate to Jack and Teal'c while he was ascended. Yet, the ascended guy (Orlin?) who visted Carter said he had to 'descend' in order to comminicate with Carter...

I have alot more to write on this subject, but alas no time at the moment.

(Edited 30mins after initial post - apologies if you saw my original ill-conceived argument)

No, you are not quite correct with the facts. Orlin DID communicate with Sam before he descended. He took the appearance of a human to lessen the blow but was still very much ascended as is Daniel when talking to Jack/Teal'c, as was Oma Desala herself on Daniel's death bed.

It's only that Orlin wanted more (nudge nudge wink wink) from Sam that he had to descend in order to interact with her.

So in fact this aspect is entirely consistent with the series so far.

Cheers.

Yeah., I remember now... the walking through tables and stuff, then becoming solid the next.

As for the all-knowing, Daniel did say in the episode Abyss that ascended didnt make you all knowing.

Daniel is young. Ascension by itself doesn't make you all knowing, but the longer you are ascended (and have more time to meditate, view the world, float around etc) the more all knowing and wise you become.

Orlin too, while being technically brilliant, wasn't the sharpest knife in the block

~merged~

Side note to complete my theory: The monk on Kheb is a Bodhisattva? Keeping in mind we have (probably Christian) writers confusing Mahayana and Zen here.

And the staff weapon shot ended that career?

Apologies to those who don't know these words. I'm trying to formulate a concrete understanding here and need the help of you who do understand. Thank you.