Because it would at least stop them from getting back up eventually.

Why is everyone bitching about Weir mentioning the Geneva Convention.

Remember, as soon as the humans in Atlantis stop sticking to their moral and ethical guidlines, they become as bad as the wraith. Would the wraith hesitate to use a human as a guniea pig? No. Humans should, that's all Weir was doing.

It's the same with any other law or rule, if the Atlantis team is in another galaxy, is it legal for one to murder the other? Is it legal to perform acts of terrorism in the city? No, then why should treating prisoners unethically be any different?

The episode was a good one all round, character building (lack of McKay was disappointing though), and it was mainly dealing with the moral and ethical issues of using biological warfare against an enemy, as an act of revenge or desperation.

If I repeat anything anyone else said I apologise but I cant really read this thread in full jus now ...

GREAT episode, kicked ass, I didnt expect steve to be teh one on teh table ... aaaaaaaaaAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH

THEY KILLED STEVE!

YOU BASTARDS!

so many different roads it could go ... Sheppards right though, screw em and Geneva what? FFS! Get a grip, geneva convention lmao ...

yea Scots dude speaks different but I hear him and love the accuracy ... someone gets to write their own lines methinks Go US ... us not U ... S ... oh forget it you twat ...

Someone in the chat meantioned about having Sheppard and Steve in a Slash relationship. I almost spilled my fruit juice on the keyboard LMAO.

I wasn't that keen on this episode. I'm not quite sure why, I think part of it may be the fact Its easy to tell something was going to go wrong, and they were not going to back down using the drug anyway.. so a lot was predictable. Although I didn't know how things were going to go wrong until that person died, and the 50% thing I didn't know either so it wasn't too predictable..

But the whole dialogie in this ep seemed rather dull, there was not really much interesting conversations or interaction. I liked the bit where the wraith was named steve by sheppard but other than that It wasn't that enjoyable to watch.

I still cant quite put my finger on what exactly seemed wrong though from one viewing at least. Perhaps part of it is the lack of collision, there was no illusion of threat, or fear conveyed by the actors, the whole human rights, ethical thing, and the dying of people was meant to seem like some conflict but the actors or the script did not succeed in making it feel like a real threat in my opinion.

Tretonin anyone?

The only thing I realy liked about this episode was the "STEVE" thing. And Sheppards battle of wills with the wraith. Dr. Wier invoking the geneva convention was ridiculous. An Sheppards reply about the wraiths not attending the convention was right on target.

This episode was intriguing for me. I could see the moral issues facing Beckett, McKay and Weir. I could also see the fact, that since they had awokened the Wraith, they wanted to find something to help fight them. Knowing what I do about WWII, and the cleansing by Hitler for one group of people, I could appreciate, what the Hoffans were trying to do. They did not want to be culled and wiped out by the Wraith, hence the almost unanimous vote to innoculate. This show brought up a lot of issues, people being guinea pigs for new drugs. People sacrificing themselves for the good of their people. Using a prisoner to esperiment on, was another one. All in all, a very intruiging episode.

Let me guess. Public schooled? The "Geneva Convention relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War" is a legal guildline, not a moral or ethical one. If you want to say "experimenting on wraith is bad" then say "experimenting on wraith is bad".

As someone who's actually read the document, let me explain. The Geneva Convention won't apply to the wraith unless they adopt the provisions of it. That's a biological impossibility so the rules don't apply to them.

I quite enjoyed the episode. While I disagree with Weir here, I've liked her, and she's certainly a better character then Janeway. Her bringing up the Geneva convention is something an international treaty negotiator like herself would do, and you understand she did allow it. If I were sheppard I would have mentioned that the Wraith haven't signed the Geneva convention however.

I would have enjoyed seeing the debate if the Hoffans had given them a convicted prisoner to test the drug on. I'd do it in a heartbeat of course. That's always been my idea in SG-1 whenever they need a host for a symbiote.

Of course the Hoffans problem is that as soon as the Wraith discover what they've done, they're going to nuke the planet, not just cull the place. But I understand why they want to fight back. Some sort of vaccine (killing have the users or not) would be the best way to fight, as long as you spread it around far enough so that the wraith are starved out.

Probably would have been great if the atlantis team hadn't woken them up. Oops.

So I really liked the episode. As a long time startrek sufferer, it's a pleasure to see realistic characters in realistic situations. If this were a startrek episode, they would have argued about the testing for 40 minutes and then technobabbled their way out.

One other point. This is the second time we've had a civilian character talk about how he can't be ordered around. First off, you'd think he'd have to follow wiers orders. Secondly, I certainly hope they have some conflict between military and civilian. Is Sheppard second in command after Wier? Is Weir governor for life? Does the ponytail scientist get tossed through the gate someday (I wanted to marry Weir after that).

This post has been edited by FreshPez: Aug 22nd 2004, 2:21 AM

Nope, private schooled, And if you bothered to read on at the example i said, i indecated that it in a situation where a person(s) is isolated from someone whom can hold them to the law, THEN it becomes a moral and ethical responsibility to uphold that law. (honour factors in there too, but still).

The japanese never signed the Geneva convention, are you saying that it's alright for the US or other allied nations to perform legal/illegal medical experiments or torture on japanese prisoners during wartime?

This post has been edited by Count: Aug 22nd 2004, 2:46 AM

No, but then again the Japanese weren't going out trying to exterminate every non-Japanese person in the universe

I thought this ep was pretty good.
One of the things I'm noticing is that the Atlantis team is still trying understand how the Wraith cullings affect the cultures/planets they visit. This isn't something as simple as having a Goa'uld enslave your race and force you to worship them as Gods. The emotional/psychological....and socialogical effects of these 'harvestings' is really interesting to see.

For example, this week it was a race that has spent generations trying to make advancements in a defense against the Wraith despite their civilization being destroyed repeatedly, and then suddenly handed the 'magic bullet' they were looking for.

The most interesting thing was that, when not only given the tech they needed but the possiblity of having something added as well, they were suddenly not content any more with having a 'self-defence' against the Wraith. No, that wasn't good enough, not if it could be converted into a weapon that would actually kill them instead.

At least Sheppard tried to explain how dangerous that could be to them, but these people tossed all their conservative ways out the window in exchange for something 'better' and 'faster'. The fact that, as a people, they willing accept a %50 mortality rate in the testing...possibly in the entire civilization... is astonishing.

This simply fact says more about their 'new' thinking than anything else. Sheppard seemed a bit unease at that too, and I can't help but wonder if he would've authorized Steve's 'feeding' if he had known it would kill the Wraith.

Just a smart, smart ep...

I don't think anybody is seriously suggesting that they drop all moral conduct and civility. But they are in an extreme situation, facing an enemy that would have all of them as the main course. So no measure can really be called extreme when facing such a foe.

I bet you probably equally think that the religious zealots at Gitmo should be granted immedaitely their freedom and allowed to mass murder at their hearts content.

Peaceniks will be the death of us all...

This post has been edited by RJLCyberPunk: Aug 22nd 2004, 4:56 PM

I think that just starts to scratch the surface as to how these people feel after being treated for probably 100s if not 1000s of generations of being food for the Wraith. They feel that they finally have the potential to end the vicious cycle.

How terrible it must have been for these people for 96% of them to accept essentially "killing" off 50% of the population for this opportunity.

Pretty "heady" stuff in this episode.

Edit: I am already missing Steve. He was such a unique view of the Wraith

This post has been edited by SG1Papa: Aug 22nd 2004, 4:59 PM

Thats a pretty ignorant statement you just made. I'd gladly attend public school if people that make off the cuff comments like this are par for the course in private schools...

Let's hope they catch another one and call him 'George' <---


<------ went to public school and thinks private schools are just glorified nurseries.

This post has been edited by Ehzarhorden: Aug 23rd 2004, 1:48 AM

Rather than letting half the population die, why didnt they give everyone a bottle of the stuff and say, take only when ur about to be taken by a wraith. In the mean time, they can keep working on a solution to the problem.

Anywaz, i tihnk it was still an alright ep, cant wait for next weeks thou

Good episode ***
love the 'steve the wraith' pretty darn funny. glad hes gone, wont be too hard for us to get annother one lol

The agreement requires that we honor the provisions of the Geneva convention when a country ADOPTS the provisions. It doesn't require that a nation have signed it. Ignore the fact that it's against their laws to fight wars and imagine that the Japanese started taking prisoners and chopping off their heads. We'd be free to reciprocate.

Call your high school and ask that they return your money.

Geneva convention does not apply to animals, livestock or aliens.

I think you also have to be human and from a country of EARTH.

Wraith should be treated like a pack of dogs with mutated rabies. They should be captured and experimented on indescriminately until a cure is found while at the same time wiping them out. If a cure isnt found before they are all wiped out, who cares problem solved anyways ...

I also think that we (the audience) are trying to understand the emotional/psychological/sociological effects of Wraith harvestings - just like the Atlantis team.

This episode as well as the previous one (Childhood's End) have both shown societies where the members are willing to give up their own lives in the hope that their sacrifice would help prevent their friends and families from being eaten alive by the Wraith.

Who are the Atlantis team to tell them that their approach is wrong? Only after the Wraith have descended upon Atlantis and consumed at least half of the population (hopefully the Weir character amongst them) will our Earthlings have any idea of the mental anguish that the people in the Pegasus Galaxy having been experiencing for hundreds (perhaps thousands) of years.

I don't like the Atlantis team passing judgement on these people who finally found a way of fighting back. It is the Atlantis team wandering around with all those weapons in case they meet a Wraith (or anyone else). Since Weir is the great diplomatic shouldn't she be using her skills to "persuade" their new friends in the Pegasus galaxy to try other means of dealing with the Wraith. The only Pegasus residents she has come in contact with (Tayla's people) moved out of Atlantis because of her decisions regarding their freedom.

I love McKay's prescient comments from last week's episode....

"Listen kiddies, everything you believe to be true is wrong and trust us because we've been here for almost an hour"

This was also a great character episode for the amazing Dr. Carson Beckett (and a great perfomance). He should be one of the stars of the show. Odd that the writers chose to write an epsiode for Beckett so early on when we have really seen little or no character development for the Atlantis Team itself (especially Ford).

I personally felt this episode was rushed they would goto a commercial and a ton of stuff would have happened and then they'd be moving in a tottally different direction.. I was really looking foward to this episode but what I was left with I found severly dissapointing because they had such such potential they left untapped.

dam strate!
and I was suprised that a non-main charicter got a charicter developement epasoide and the actor that playies "DR. Carson Becket" form the actor I senced that the good doctor loved and cared about that scientist babe and didn't that actress play Xena Volk in the SG-1 epasoide "Cure"?