I think he ment why don't they walk through the Stargate.
Although maybe the gate was in orbit, as many of them are.

She has a name. She has a name!!
Oh sweet Moros!
hehe Damn she's cute!

Funny how we know where she went after Janos and Weir had their little chat with her.
...The council has made their decission, I cannot change that, but knowing our kind will return I will record a message for your people explaining what had happened to Atlantis.....

That was the same chick right?

Oh yeah, I thought that this was an excellent episode!

Dr Weir did her thang when she spoke to Carson alone, you know that look, the one that if you try reading her mind she's telling you that she wants you now!!!
She also must have advanced BooB genes, cos 10000 years later they're still defying gravity! hehe

This post has been edited by dr_n_tesla: Dec 8th 2004, 8:06 AM

I simply meant humanity as a whole. Since when were Americans a "race"?

This post has been edited by Drizzt's Syn: Dec 8th 2004, 7:27 AM

I wish that the ancients didnt act so arrogant in this ep, like when weir wanted to go back to her own time..they didnt even discuss it with her they just basically ignored everything she said and said no after discussing it amongst themselves.

It seemed very Tollan to me, I thought the ancients should have been more like the Asgard in this situation, at least they were willing to hear O'Neil out, give reasons, debate them with him and then come to a decision.

I would have had a lot more respect for them if they did.

for f8cks sake say what the stupid spoiler will be about...

If the spoiler is for "americans", you never know, we brits may actually get to see the season finale before you americans.



I thought this episode was great, shame the Ancients didn't really help Weir out and watching te original timeline, when Weir and team arrived at Atlantis, kinda sad to watch the senior members slowly die by drowning but kinda glad that an alternate timeline has been created.

At least the old Weir wasn't as likeable as old Janeway (of Star Trek Voyager), but it was certainly interesting, 5 gate addresses to outposts, I wonder how many of them have ZPMs and will we actually get to see them dial to those outposts.

Probably the 3rd or 4th person here to say this but

Moros is very cute

Oh ... Sheppard and Weir LOL I'm expecting some loving scenes sometime soon.

This post has been edited by Carter-Hot: Dec 8th 2004, 3:48 PM

I personally can't believe that you are judging every ancient on the three who spoke in the episode.

They might come across as unusual and weak to us but you have to remember that they are completely different. You seem to be judging them by our standards of ?enlightenment? but their morals would have developed differently, the actions of their species over millions of years would have been incredibly different.

As a result you cannot understand why the ancients had the reaction they did, their outright refusal might not have been from closed mindedness but from their beliefs or experience with time in the past.

Their non-interference policy most likely derived from the fact that they had no internal wars as was stated in "The Sanctuary", it was of "concern" that we warred within our own cultures due ?the hatred? we feel for each other.

If the ancient?s culture developed with a lack of war then it stands to reason that they would pursue peaceful approaches with a pacifistic outlook.

It wasn't that they were weak it was just their culture, it wasn't that they were arrogant/closed minded it was their culture.

In conclusion you have to realise that was a miniscule sample of the ancients and until we know more about their culture we cannot hope to judge them, their motivations are not known, and their none-interference policy most likely comes from higher understanding. After all ?causality cannot be treated so lightly?.

Personally I was rather impressed by them because it illustrated that some components of their early evolution still remained, it portrayed them as human and clearly defined their morals.

Anyway,

Personally I loved this episode due to the constant humour, especially the ultimate failure debate between McKay and Sheppard, at least McKay died saving the lives of others!

As I have said, this episode highlighted ancient beliefs/morals and their reluctance to use warships due to their moral implications was rather admirable in my opinion. Plus it leaves the plot open for more ancient technology pertaining to defence.

The running theme of ?live in the moment? was of particular interest as I think it will be a factor of Weirs personality from now on and was of particular relevance to the plot of the episode as everything was in the moment, the departure of the ship, the collapse of the shield, the deaths, the rapid ancient actions. It was all seen in the moment? perhaps I am going too far but that was my personal reaction.

The lack of information on the ancients left me fantasising which is what I want from this show, I might not like it at the end of the show but I know that it leaves every possibility open and allows the writers an exciting base to build upon.

One criticism that stood out for me was that I was asking the question ?Where the hell did they cremate her?? I assume that the ancients didn?t have specially dedicated technology for such a purpose and I assume that expedition didn?t bring a furnace with them? so where?

I'm glad people agree with me now, I've been saying that the very attractive hologram would be the empathic council member since I saw Rising? I'm glad I was proved right, I?ll accept any excuse to see her more! I seem to have a thing for far superior intellects.

This is a tad longer than intended?.sorry.

This post has been edited by Felger: Dec 8th 2004, 4:16 PM

I have to agree with the majority, an excellent episode.. beginning to find out a lot more about the Ancients over recent episodes, hope it continues.

I dont really see anything wrong with the Ancients, they didnt have anything personally against Weir they simply did not wish to get involved with time travel.. who knows what there reasons are but perhaps they just dont beleive in re-writing there timeline.

They clearly stated that they wanted nothing to do with time travel and had already told that scientist blokey to stop his research.

One thing i wasnt sure about is.. When weir woke up (at the age of 6,666yrs) surely she wouldnt be much healthier than she is now?

Few pics







I enjoyed the episode alot, Alot of my questions were answered such as how much of a fight did the atlantians put up?

As we heard they used their best ships available but were helpless from the sheer number of Wraith.

Think of Zulus and British

Its always nice to see live ancients, form some of the comments about how dissapointed they are after seeing them, How can you judge a civilization on 3 people?.

Non interfearance is a good idea.

They obviously put up the best fight they could and lost. So Im thinking now, the Ancients went to the pegasus galaxy seeded life lived happily for a while.

Came under attack by the wraith, after a long period of fighting went to the peace table although this led to a huge battle in which the ancients eventually lost. On a side note of that wouldnt it be great to see that battle? Make the scene from 'Lost City' look pityful.

The ancients then went back to earth and lived happily again for a while until they started dying from the illness, they expanded their research on ascention as we saw they were doing this while on atlantis.


My Two cents.

Chris

Overall i think this ep was rather poor, however the redeeming factor was the possibility of the zpm's. The only downside is that i doubt they will ever get a zpm with enough juice to power atlantis...considering that 1 full zpm will provide sufficient power for atlantis for more than 3000 years since that would just amke things far far to easy.

Another thing is that i would have imagined that zmp's would be something the ancients didnt have in short supply....which makes me wonder why they didnt have spare ones sitting around just as you would have spare batteries at home.

I would imagine when they left the pegasus galaxy they took all the spares and other resources back home with them, leaving spares would be pointless because if no one was there they couldnt exactly use them.

It would of been best to take them back to earth to be used elsewhere.

Chris

Although the Ancients are an advance civilisation they are still humans. They are not perfect, at least not every single one of them. As I recall, Wier came at a very bad time. Tehy were already planning to evacuate and under a time limit. Wier could have managed to convinced them (cause she's supposedly a great international negotiator ) eventually if she went back to Earth.

What's this about judging a whole race on 1 person??? To my knowlegde, their were only 1 smug Tollen person. Even Earth doesn't share it's technology with lesser advance race!

Anyway my review on this episode *spoilers ahead*:

This was the episode I have been looking forward to, and it is the best episode for SGA. I haven't been impressed at all with the series, but this certainly makes up for it.

I was hoping to know a lot more about the Ancients by old Wier, but obviously they made it so she arrived as the Ancients were leaving. Everything was set up in a way that it fits together perfectly. It is very sentimental and sad, and Wier is a stronger character than most people think.

All in all, it is good but there are a few gripes:

- SG1 has time travelled, and experience time dilation/repeated events before. I'm surprise none of them knew about it or it was even mentioned. Maybe it was highly classified as one did have a consequence on General Hammond.

- I always hated it when series do time travel episodes. Star Trek does it in abundance with Voyager, and the first 2 seasons of Enterprise. It's horrible and messy. SG1 manages to limit it to a few nice and neat episodes. This episode manages to create a paradox - it's not neat and it's not nice. They explained it by saying multiple universes - so not only old Wier traveled through time, she travelled crossed universes.

- Wier must changed the ZPM twice in 10000 years. Assuming all the ZPM lasted about the same time she changed it at around 3500 years old, and 6500 years old. How did she managed?

- I can forgive this one as Stargate never really sorted out the language problem, but as someone said The Ancients spoke English, although the Ancient in 'Frozen' didn't.

- Did old Wier knew Shepperd/McKay/Beckkitt well enough to show them that much affection?

- We still know no more than we did before.Where did the Wraith come from? How is the galaxy populated with humans? What happened exactly? Their history? We did manages to get some stargate address - but we all know it's not that easy.

- McKay didn't freak out this time when he knew he was going to die. I'm surprise.

Some of you must remember the Ancients are humans, even if it is a previous generation. Is it that surprising they act like us? As Chaya said in the last episode, 'we are not all that different'.

This statement makes little sense...if you compared Humans from 5000 years ago to today you would find that there was a MASSIVE gulf between them socially, they would be considered nothing but barbarians.

Remember that is only 5000 years im talking, the ancients as a race have lived through millions of years, its hard to comprehend just how far that should have taken them technologically and socially.

In my opinion the ancients (from what we have seen) are no more englightened than the Tollans and they share some of the same character flaws (if perhaps in a lesser degree).

i live in the UK and iv just downloaded the episode and its amazing, i fthink its 1 of the best atlantis episodes so far!!! its good to see wot the actiants were like and atlantis fully operational, and im guessin that Jonhus (the person that built the time machine) was the one who built the puddle jumper they find on Harry Maybornes planet in Its Good 2 Be King to travel to the past in SG-1s Mobius??

I think that this was a great ep. but was also a little disapointed by the ancients attitude... at first. I have this idea of the ancients being this noble race. This is not seen in this episode but there is a pretty good reason for that, I think. At this point where we see them, they have been defeated. Their civilisation is chattered. First they experienced a plague, making them leave earth. Where they thought they could find sanctuary they found an enemy who defeated them. You can see there is not many ancients left (in atlantis anyway) when they are leaving.
My point is that when you see this ep you have to keep in mind that the ancients are pretty much gone so of course they are not as noble and amazing as we were let on to believe but that does not mean that they weren't at the time before all their misery.
One thing that puzzles me is that they seem to have been in Pegasus for a long time (leaving earth several million of years ago). That means they must have had a long time, well how can I put this, to make a lot of ancients babies . Why weren't their numbers great when they stumbled upon the wraith.

But that is exactly the point. We are the second evolution of the Ancients. Your assumption is based on that they are older by millions of years. But how do you know? We know nothing about them. We are probably at the same stage as them if not close.

As you rightly pointed out they seem to out like the Tollens. This comes as no surprise since the Tollens are also human. Since the Tollens built their own gate, it is safe to assumed that they have nearly reached the technological advancement as the Ancient's own technology (except in the matters of war and defense).

Now, as Daniel Jackson pointed out, Earth would have achieved the same technological advancement as the Tollens if it werent for the Dark Ages (which hampered technological and scientific advancement). Now putting all this into perspective, we are at the close to the same stage as the Ancients development (much as do the Tollens) then. We just don't have the technology. Now is it so surprising they act so human?


On another note what flaws did the Tollens have? From a few smug members we assume the whole race is flawed? That is so judgemental. This does not account for the whole race - was Narrim like that? Geez. So they didn't share their technology, but neither do SG1 with any other less developed race.

I also don't get what's wrong with the Ancients' attitude that you lot are saying. They are kind and understanding. The rules and stances on time travel are clear (for all we know something devastating happens, as with the Tollens, that made them enforce that law). If someone came up to us and ask for a nuclear warhead we wouldn't give it to them - and messing around with time is far more catastrophic. Are you all just annoyed because they didn't help one of ours in the way we want? They did all they can in the allocated time (they were being attacked) with their laws and rules.

Another thing i dont get is why arnt there eny remains of the Ancients on Earth, or did they all just live in at the antarctic outpost??

Well technically, she is let's say 6500 years old, but her ageing did slow down, to the point that she may have been changing the ZPMs at 60 years old equivalent.

The post referring to:

See, it's the number game, no matter how much tech you got, with the Ancients that like to stay calm all the bloody time and show low strategies, and with the Wraith's high regenerative capabilities, no wonder the Ancients lost.

Warships ... the Ancients showed enough emotions to build a Warship, I am surprised! Moros, I liked the way she talked, so sweet and "jolly"

This post has been edited by Carter-Hot: Dec 10th 2004, 3:28 PM

I was suprised at that too, I thought they may have mentioned the 'Window of opp" machine or the solar flare in "1969" But maybe they covered it up like what they did with the Foothold situation.

She was in 'almost' suspended animation, she aged very slowly. She probably rotated the ZPM's when she was about 60 and 80 years old.

Most of the Atlantis team had been working together in the Antartic base for months before the Atlantis mission (except sheppard).

I think that he was kinda sh*ting himself, his voice was trembling a bit when he was trying to open the PJ roof, but I think he knew there was no way out and with adrenlin pumping and how quickly the room started to fill up, there was no time to freak out.

BTW, did anyone notice that McKay called them GateShips? Remember thats what he wanted to call them in 'Rising'.

With the gate address' that they got off old Wier, Mc Kay said that they had been to one of the planets? Anyone know what one it was? There is supposed to be an outpost there, wouldnt it be funny if it was the Genni planet....

I had assumed they planet they'd already been to was Athos, as that had an ancient city on it. (or an advanced human city, probably ancient-built).

I assume the outpost would be fairly close to the stargate?

adam.

I prefer to describe her voice as "serene"; it embodied everything I expected an ancient to sound like, it conveyed a powerful sense of enlightenment and peace.

Anyway, being a pacifist only works when all those around you are pacifists. The ancients realised that it was a necessity to build a defensive force, they were never the aggressors. They merely used warships to defend their delegation (badly) and they never actively attacked the wraith worlds.

It seems that the ancients valued all life, even the enemies, and a result didn?t destroy it if it could be avoided by other means.

It?s a pity that they?re pacifistic goals had to be destroyed after millions of years, at least they never made nay concessions on their values and tried for peace until the very last possible moment.

It?s a pity that they weren?t helpful for the sake of the plot, if they?d complied with Weir then Atlantis wouldn?t be a series she would have been sent to the moment that they all died, also if they?d given them everything they needed there wouldn?t be a series. As a result they come across as stubborn, perhaps they will be portrayed as more helpful in the future.

I saw this episode last week but I couldn't go onto the internet to write what I think about it

Well, this episode was good. But I thought the Ancients didn't know how to speak English lol. Because in episode Frozen in Stargate SG-1, the frozen Ancient didn't know how to speak, oh well I guess that was an effect it had being the the ice for so long then. I didn't expect us to see the actual Ancients already.. But other then that the episode was great. I liked it.

I found a little error about this episode, but i idn't want to start a whole new topic for it in the Nitpick section.

When the control room was flooding and Shepperd, Wier, and Zelenka were in the jummper, McKay was trying to retract the roof. My question is how did he know about it. In the second time around he didn't know until episode 5 when he hit the wrong key in the jummper.

You forget, Sheppard doesn't need modification to run the puddle jumper.
Only the guys without the ancient gene. So, it perfectly makes sense.