I had a thought in the toa of rodney, rodney almost reaches ascension without the help of the ancients,so my question is if he has become an ascended being on his own without help is he bound by the rules imposed by the ancients on themselves and those that they have ascended? after all the orii were not bound by those rules and they too were ascended. I personally don't think that anyone who ascends on thier own would be bound by those rules.after all it'd be like one country imposing it's standards on another

No, Rodney did not ascend quite on his own. He used an Ancient device that had manipulated his mind in order for him to get close to ascension. If he would have succeeded in ascension, the Ancients would have demanded he follow their rules for sure, because it was their technology that helped him manage.

The Ori weren't bound by those rules because the Ancients were not present in their galaxy. The Ori couldn't invade the Milky Way because the Ancients could stop them, showing the Ancients could impose their rules on the Ori if they were present in the same galaxy. So far we know the Ancients only exert their rules in the Milky Way and Pegasus.

the device may have been ancient but there was not an ascended being actively involved! so far the only time we've seen ascension except with adria is with daniel jackson,that monk in kebb and those people living in the sanctuary with daniel and the monk oma desala was actively helping them to ascend
and in sanctuary it was said that the other ascended beings maintained the sanctuary which could also be interpreted as active help.but someone just using a device that had been abandoned by the ancients still does that on his own. ok i'll give you another scenario then if the earth scientists created their own version of the device from the toa of rodney and they managed to get someone to ascend would that person be bound by the rules that the ancients set down after all he would've had absolutely no help from any ancient equipment! also if you did ascend would you be able to come back with a near ascension body for instance in toa it's said once you have over 90% of your brain working your body begins to shutdown to prepare for ascension so if you came back at say 85% in a way that you'd stay at 85%.just a thought.

No, using a device created by the Ancients is still cheating. How can you say that someone ascended on his own when he is obviously cheating his way there? As a species, humans are not evolved enough to achieve this goal. To be frank, I do not know if the Ancients would impose their rules on that person or not, I admit that the probability for this to be true is quite high.

I only read your first phrase, the rest is just babble written in a disrespectful non-punctuated way.

I'm sorry to say that it is for the last time I read any word you write. Unless you find a way to respect the members of this forum by creating easy-to-read posts that is (paragraphs, real phrases ending with full-stop, etc.).

P.S.: Shouldn't this thread be in the Speculation section of the forum? There are no facts present about the main idea, we can only speculate about it.

This post has been edited by KillerMarv: Jun 1st 2008, 4:21 PM

I don't it was ever said that the Ancient, (Alterrans) were the ones that created the rules. Perhaps they are follow rules setup by those that came before them.

That's a valid point, and it could be more than speculation on our behalf, since it was Cam that has also speculated the same thing in SG-1. We could agree that it is a way TPTB are telling us about the possible existence of this higher order of beings, thus leaving a space open inside the canon so they can be introduced if it is necessary.

I've thought that for quite some time. Probably since I learned that the ancients were studying being made purly of energy. I they had to get the idea of ascension from somewhere and they tried to aritificially advance themselves to that end.

We know for a fact that the Ancients enforce the rules. I doubt that it will make any difference on how you ascend, but if you do so, and if your located in the galaxies controlled by them, then you would need to follow those rules. Just like you have to follow the laws of whatever country your currently in, no matter what nationality you are.


In SG-1's Threads, Oma said that not all the people in the diner where Ancients. So maybe some of them are from another race that ascended before them?

But where do you get an idea like ascension from? Come to think of it, there is one way. The race that might have advanced before them left hints that they have ascended and members of their ranks might have also broken a few rules by helping them achieve ascension (they might have felt lonely up there). Familiar?

I think that the ascended beings in the diner were humans from either Pegasus or MW that have managed to achieve ascension with or without Ancient help. We know of a few cases. I think that is what Oma was talking about. Although it can easily be supported by canon if they turn out to be a higher rank of beings.

This post has been edited by KillerMarv: Jun 1st 2008, 10:07 PM

They never said the Ancients, they said, "the collective". They also refer them as the others. There is a point in 'Full Circle" where Daniel says, "I'm an Ancient.... I mean the others like me are the Ancients." That isn't to say that they all were.

In threads Oma did say some of the others were Ancients, we know Anubis and Daniel weren't, but there were never really any absolutes placed on that.

After thinking about it more, I realized that the Ori were also thinking about ascending, because Alterrans ever left that galaxy.

Well the thing is if another race of beings on an even higher plane of existence existed before the ancients ascended and they created the rules, then they would also be unable to interfere to the point that they could help the ancients ascend or even place their rules on the ancients!
Also marv because you didn't read all of my post you missed out on the other scenario i put forward, so reread it and then you'll be able to properly have something informed to say about it.

Thank you for listening.

Now, I find the scenario interesting. But I also find it impossible for human scientists to build such a device completely on their own without being advanced themselves. And if they ascend someone neutral not as advanced as they are, that person would still be cheating since he/she didn't work on building the device, nor was he advanced enough to understand how it was working. The scientists might have a chance though.

I don't know what to say about the returning to near ascension form. In cases we've seen of Ancients returning, they still had the knowledge they possessed while ascended, but somehow couldn't ascend back on their own. We also know of a case in which a person was advancing his brain towards ascension very fast, but this was because he was being treated towards that goal. I doubt that anyone else with that said 85% would be able to advance his/her mind by his/her will.

This post has been edited by KillerMarv: Jun 2nd 2008, 5:28 AM

We've seen Ancients/Ascended beings break the rules before for certain reasons. It's plausible that the "higher Ascended" beings decided a few of them breaking the rules to pass on their knowledge, and the rules themselves was permissible.

After all, if the "rules" were passed down from a race who got there first, they'd have to tell the Ancients the rules somehow... and likely they would need to prove their power and status to curb any arrogant Ancient "we're smarter/tougher/better than you" attitude.

And an Ascended being stopping another or a Higher Ascended stopping a lower from interfering[sp] is technically interfering in itself... so... it's a catch 22... but then again, I'm really tired, so I could be way off and remembering something completly different...

This post has been edited by Joda: Jun 2nd 2008, 5:38 AM

Well i was thinking more along the lines of merlin,he was able to come back at a fairly advanced level whilst retaining a lot of his ascended knowledge whithout the side effect of that knowledge harming his brain.
I mean if you had a person who came back at say 85% that should be sufficiently advanced enough to use one of those ancient repositories shouldn't it? And coming back at that level whould'nt technically be breaking the rules because that person would have been at that level of advancement before they ascended
only now it would be stable.



Your right it is a catch 22, personally I think that these rules were created by the Ancients themselves otherwise the orii would have been bound by them too.I think that if a higher race of ascended beings
exists (higher than the Ancients) they just don't bother with lesser beings seeing them as we would see
ants or mites (not worth bothering about).

This post has been edited by lancelot2: Jun 2nd 2008, 6:09 AM

I take it you're thinking he would build an Ancient advancing-thingy-that-can-ascend-you. Yes, I guess that would work, but it's either:

A. Merlin couldn't get such information from the repository because the information was not there because the Ancients didn't want to risk this information to humans yet, or SG-1 didn't want to intersect storylines with Atlantis... or...

B. Merlin wasn't advanced enough to build that device in his descended form.

Another races wouldn't have to be on a higher plane of existance. You just need to be on an equal plane of existence.

But ants do bother us when they happen to interfere in our home. That's the point here as well, when some of the lesser beings break the rules and interfere in their domain, they must interfere.



This multiple plane of existence detail seems to get confusing at times. How would one define it actually. Is it a way to separate beings with more energy from beings with less energy, beings with more knowledge from beings with less knowledge or beings that have reached ascension earlier from beings that have reached it later?

I don't know. In AOT, Adria definitly had more than than Oma for most of the movie, but they were on the same plane. What more incentive could there be for an ascended being to rise any higher than they are.

Perhaps they are on the top plane, and there are planes between where we are and there they are. Perhaps even below us?

No i'm not suggesting anything like that.I was using Merlin as an example of someone who had come back
from ascension at an extremely advanced level.
as for melin getting information from the repsitory he wouldn't need to, he was already an ancient he probably new most of what was in there anyway, in fact it's possible that he even help to create the repositories. As for him creating an acension device he wouldn't need to he himself didn't want to reascend
and I doubt that he would want to ascend any other people (although come to think of it wasn't it mentioned somewhere in camelot that merlin helped Authur ascend?). Also the in regards to humans building the device I didn't neccesarily mean now but maybe at sometime in the future when we have the knowledge on our own!

But how advanced he was, we have no idea.



It's more than possible that he helped create them, since he himself downloaded his consciousness into one of them so Daniel can use. So this makes this a valid point.



If you're talking about "The Quest" (the only time they meet Merlin), he never specified that he didn't want to ascend, only that he didn't quite see eye-to-eye with them.



I didn't mention that humans would build it now. I only said that such a device cannot be built unless humans are very advanced.

Well we do know that he was advanced enough to create lightning and to make objects move, so i'd suppose that he was fairly high up on the evolutionary scale.I bet that Baal would have loved to get his hands on merlin as a host!

An advanced being ascends. So they are o a higher plane of existance for a few 1000 years. Once they become a more advanced energy being the ascend again to yet a higher plane (call it the big boy or the high roller plane. A few million years there and you can keep going up and up until you meet god, kick him square in the nads and take over.

This has nothing to do with tech theis is total speculation.

Moved. Good thread though.

kick god in the nads roflmao