I was thinking (yes, it happens occasionally) about the harsesis child...

Some people were saying a while back, that maybe the tok'ra could have chilren, to pass on their memories in the form of a Harsesis, and I was wondering... if there were two Harsesis children and they grew up, and got together, and had a kid, would it still have the genetic memory of the goa'uld or tok'ra parents? And also, if only one Harsesis was to be a part of the coupling, would some of the genetic memory be sent on (I know, the memory is originally only given by the queen goa'uld... so maybe.)

Another thing... what if a Goa'uld host was to impregnate an ordinary human woman... would that work to form a harsesis?

I'd be interested to hear what other people think about this, as it would mean that the tok'ra line would continue onwards, if they were to have Harsesis kids... and it would also mean trouble for the goa'uld.

This post has been edited by Annise: Jun 30th 2003, 1:32 PM

Well we don't really know enough about how/why the genetic memories get passed onto a Harsesis to really answer these questions properly, but here is my opinion.

Two Harsesis having a child would not pass on their genetic memory to the child because they would really just be two normal humans with some extra memories and normal human parents don't pass on their memories.

If a Goa'uld host was to impregnate a normal human woman, I would assume that the memories wouldn't be passed on either. This is based on the fact that I think two Goa'uld are needed (one in each host) to pass on the memories. But as I said, we don't really know enough to speculate.

yer i agree there ant enought information 2 give a proper answer 2 all the questions and i also agree on the fact that it takes two Goa'uldsto pass on the memories. cuz thats how it happened between apophis and Amonet/Sha're

QUOTE (Annise @ here)

if there were two Harsesis children and they grew up, and got together, and had a kid, would it still have the genetic memory of the goa'uld or tok'ra parents?

I believe that the newly born would not have the knowledge of the Goa?uld.
The process of passing on knowledge is selective and controlled during the act of conceiving, thus, can only be performed by a symbiote.

QUOTE (Annise @ here)

Another thing... what if a Goa'uld host was to impregnate an ordinary human woman... would that work to form a harsesis?

I?m pretty sure it doesn?t or else Apophis would have done that in the first place, sparing himself the fuss of taking care of Amanuet. God knows what Tok?ra queens want.

QUOTE (Behenna @ here)

yer i agree there ant enought information 2 give a proper answer 2 all the questions

Then make a supposition or something.

Okay, here was the line of thinking that originally got my thinking about this topic:

The goa'uld have genetic memory. This implies that the memory is somehow stored in the DNA of the Goa'uld, and that they can recall this anyway. Now, I don't know, and I don't think anyone else does either, how the harsesis comes to attain this genetic knowledge, but it must be something to do with the DNA of the symbiote in the harsesis' parents becomming part ofthe harsesis. So, if the harsesis child has the goa'uld's genetic memory in their DNA, and two harsesis' have a child, they would pass their DNA on to their child... so why not the genetic memory?
It may be something to do with the retrieval process, so while the harsesis' child's child would still contain the genetic memory in their DNA, they would not have the harsesis' ability to retieve that knowledge, but there may be some way to retrieve it...

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

Ok, when you put it like this it does seem more likely.

It seems pretty certain that the genetic memory would be passed on by DNA, but how exactly do the symbiotes control this? Surely they aren't able to manipulate DNA. If however they can control which DNA is passed on, this would maybe provide an explanation.

Now, as for if this genetic memory stored in the DNA would be passed on by two human harsesis - well it would depend on how and where it was stored in the DNA. Humans definitely cannot control the DNA they pass onto their offspring, so unless it was passed on naturally the child would not have the genetic memory of the Goa'uld.

That's my theory on it anyway, feel free to argue, disagree or rip it to pieces

The fundamental questions are these:
Is the genetic memory passed on by default, or does the symbiote do some stuff to pass it?

Will the Harsesis kid have altered genes, or just knowledge stored in the learning and storage part of the brain (the eluding synapses)

If the answer is ?yes? to both of them, then genetic memory will probably be passed on by Harsesis kids.
In any other combination, the genetic memory will not be passed on

If the answer to the second question in ?Yes? that would also imply that the Harsesis won?t be able to reproduce with a normal human. (they don?t match)

What about Anise and Jack? If they had a kid ,would it be a Harsesis? i beleive so.

Then i think that 2 harsesis children would be capable of passing on their goa'uld knowlegde.If they have it ,then it must be in their DNA. if it was passed to them then it must be able to pass to their children.

Interesting topic.Perhaps you should send it to the prodeucers.

Well, if Jack and Annise were to reproduce there could be more than one possible outcome.

-Your statement is a possibility, the child could be retain almost all of the knowledge of the parents (it is impossible to retain everything because it is impossible to perfectly copy a gene; because there is always some degrading).

-The second possibility is that the genetic memory becomes a recesive gene. This could mean that the direct offspring may have no recollection of the memory. This offspring's child, however, may actually have the memory that the parent didn't. Perhaps this is the reason why it is not allowed for goa'uld to have harcesis children: because ten or fifteen generations down the road the recesive gene for this genetic memory may resurface. This could pose a serious threat to any goa'uld since they will probably eventually lose tracks of all the offsprings that are related to the original Harcesis.

My original hypothesis was that two harsesis having a child wouldn't create another harsesis, but I was thinking about this again and something doesn't quite add up...

I think we have to assume that the passing on of the genetic memory to the Harsesis is involuntary on the part of the symbiotes, otherwise the Tok'ra could have children and create new hosts that would be no threat.

If this is true, then the genetic memories must be passed on by some substance that is secreted by the symbiotes into the host's bloodstream (since the symbiote physically moving around and passing on the memory another way would be a voluntary action).

If the above is true then wouldn't this mean that former Goa'uld hosts also had the genetic memory of the Goa'uld, but with it possibly laying dormant? I guess if the substance is only secreted during conception then maybe not, but then a former host to a Goa'uld who had a Harsesis would have the knowledge.

Since Harsesis have the knowledge of the Goa'uld, if we assume that it IS passed on via DNA as an involuntary action, then maybe two Harsesis children's child would have the knowledge of the Goa'uld... unless the DNA the symbiotes naturally pass on is different from that which humans pass on.

Also, by these theories, a Harsesis and a Goa'uld having a child would only produce another Harsesis if the method of passing on the knowledge by DNA is the same for both symbiote and humans.

My post seems a little hard to follow in places, I hope it makes at least some sense

This post has been edited by Aesir: Aug 4th 2003, 5:11 AM

In the second case, if 2 of the offspring with the recessive gene would procreate, the chance of the new progeny being memory enhanced would be ?, since only one of 4 possible combinations will inherit both recessive genes.

Of course, having 2 recessive genes could be lethal, as is the case with many maladies.

I think you guys have come to the right conclusion for the most part...yes one or two Harsesis children would create another Harsesis child if they procreated. However, each parent would only pass on half of their knowledge and they wouldn't be able to choose which half. Here's why:

The process to create sperm or an egg in humans is done by meosis. During meosis, the parent's DNA is effectively ripped in half. The two halves from each parent form a whole during conception. So, only half of the genetic memory from each parent would be passed to give the child half. Unfortunately, the two halves don't create a whole in the child. Some of the passed memories could be similar or the same.

If only one parent was a Harsesis, then the child would have even less memories.

This explains why the Tok'ra don't use this method to maintain their numbers. With each generation, the memory would grow weaker and weaker.

QUOTE (Cmdr Thor @ Aug 5 2003, 06:37 PM)

This explains why the Tok'ra don't use this method to maintain their numbers.  With each generation, the memory would grow weaker and weaker.

Interesting theory... but of course we don't even know that the memories are passed on by DNA. There are other ways it could happen, but I'll admit they do seem very unlikely.....

Assuming DNA is used to pass on the memories and that the subjects are human... I think the main point to be made is that the child of two Harsesis would only have the genetic memory if the way that the symbiotes pass the memories to the parents of the child is the same as the way that DNA is passed from parents to children in humans.

I don't see how it explains why the Tok'ra don't maintain their numbers by having children though... they don't want their children to have the genetic memory (too dangerous). When I mentioned the Tok'ra, I was meaning that if the genetic memory isn't passed on then they could safely breed new hosts (which they are short of).

This post has been edited by Aesir: Aug 6th 2003, 11:02 AM

Thank you, Aesir, for that explanation. I had been wondering why Tok'ra hosts couldn't just have children to raise as future hosts for their symbiotes. I supposed that they felt it was too risky to try to raise children -- given their very dangerous lifestyle. If the children possessed all the Tok'ra knowledge they would be in danger of being kidnapped and implanted with Goa'uld symbiotes -- and then bringing about the destruction of the Tok'ra. Does this sound logical? Or is there something else preventing Tok'ra hosts from breeding children? Perhaps it is that the symbiote has to be dormant during the pregnancy, endangering the host's strength (remember Sha're was herself during her preganancy, Amaunet was dormant) and abilities? I'm afraid I don't understand enough about how the symbiotes affect the systems of the hosts to speculate much further on this.

Technically since the Tok'ra pretty much all came from Egeria a Harsesis wouldn't have much more knowledge than your average Tok'ra. It would have the memories of both parents, but if we assume that Egeria passed the same genetic memories onto both of the Tok'ra parents then it wouldn't have the memories from another line like a Goa'uld Harsesis may.

The issue of the symbiote having to remain dormant is a lot less of an issue with the Tok'ra than the Goa'uld since they share their bodies equally. The host being in control wouldn't affect things much except for the fact that I don't think the symbiote would be able to heal the host should it be injured.

The Tok'ra are always being attacked and having to move bases, I just imagine that having to evacuate children would be a major inconvenience. In addition to this, a child is going to be much less likely to resist and torture for information. In all honesty though, I think it's an acceptable risk given their situation...

The discussions about how the Goa'uld and Tok'ra reproduce all seem to be overlooking something. Remember Chulak? That is described as the planet where symbiotes are most plentiful. We are shown a temple and a huge holding tank full of really immature symbiotes. But we are never told where they are coming from.

Clearly these infant Goa'uld are not Egeria's children.

Hathor seems to be on the outs with the rest of the system lords and in the episode where she dies, she is shown as trying to set up her own kingdom, separate from the others, so it is unlikely that the larvae are hers.

So where is the third queen bee?

Hutchy

Why does ther have to be only three 'queen bees'.

I think any planet that has a supply of Jaffa is going to have a Goauld queen.

I also imagine that every system lord has their own breeeder queen(in case of 'male' System lords) or is a queen.

yeah i think that there is more than 3 queens, otherwise there less gou'lds.

Yes, there are/were almost definitely lots more Goa'uld Queens than just Hathor and Egeria... they just haven't shown them all. If there were just these two then the Jaffa would be pretty much a dead race by now as Hathor has been dead for quite some time and before that she was trapped on Earth... Amonet and Isis are two Goa'ulds that have been mentioned that may or may not have been Queens (they were referred to as such, but it might have been the King/Queen type of Queen instead of real Goa'uld Queen), but regardless there are clearly more of them out there.

Aesir, I have to agree with you: it would be worth the risk for the Tok'ra to have children and raise them to be hosts. If they were raised to believe in the cause, they would grow up understanding the reasons for enduring hardship and danger, expecting to blend with a symbiote one day (rather like Jadzia did in DS9). That would sure solve the lack of hosts problem. And the children would only be given the most important information as they reached adulthood and could learn to withstand the torture they might receive if captured. There must be some reason why the Tok'ra hosts can't mate, or surely they would have thought of this. Or would their Harsesis children be too wise to get involved in the war, like Shifu? Perhaps they would all ascend away upon birth?

Ok, here is another question: Do the symbiotes have to inhabit only sentient beings? What if a goa'uld took over a cat? Couldn't that serve as a temporary host until the symbiote could find a more intelligent host? Or is sentience necessary? I'm sure there is some biological reason why they couldn't blend, but the idea tickles my fancy every now and then (especially when my cat is acting particularly possessed...she already has the gold eyes that glow now and then!). Any thoughts?

For that matter, are the goa'uld sentient as they swim around in those holding tanks or in Chaka's pond? What a drag that must be, stuck in a pond with no way to go out and dominate a population. Hmmm, seems like this question belongs elsewhere. Please bear with me.

This post has been edited by Sam's Sister: Nov 3rd 2003, 1:04 PM

This raises an interesting point (and PLEASE tell me I am not accidentally posting after my own last post, which was more than 24 hours ago) -

Just how DO all the Goa'uld gain access to all the Goa'uld knowledge? With each symbiote produced the knowledge would have to come from parents (or queen). Anything learned afterwards would be simple learned knowledge.

A Goa'uld system lord is unlikely to share all his/her secrets with the rest of the clan. So how do new symbiotes gain the learned knowledge? Why are they not all in the same boat as the Tok'ra?

Hutchy

Genetic memory is - by definition - genetic in nature, passed genetically from one individual to another. I think the comment about being able to access the memory raises an interesting point.

The Harsesis child, Shifu, implied that he is only able to fight against the evil within him by denying it access to his conscious self. Perhaps this also implies that the genetic memory of the Goa'uld is a dominant trait, expressed unless suppressed.

Ah, but see the thing is that by default they would have the genetic memories passed onto their parents by Egeria and also some (if not all) of the memories of the parents themselves. Therefore they would be a security risk as soon as they were able to understand these memories and talk. Ok, they could limit their exposure to current intel, but that's about it. I don't think there is any reason why Tok'ra hosts can't mate... it's just this security risk and the inconvenience of having children on their base.

Basically though even if it might work any be a solution, we have to understand that the reason that the Tok'ra haven't thought of it is because the writers haven't ... or at least they have decided against the idea.

We saw in 'The Tomb' that a Goa'uld can take over other creatures, but it's unclear if they would be able to blend properly (which is required if the symbiote is to live for any length of time). We know from Hathor that the Queen needs the DNA of the intended host to ensure a successful blending and we also know that only since the Goa'uld have been using Jaffa to incubate the larvae have blendings with humans been totally successful. Therefore I think that a Tok'ra trying to use a cat (or other common animal) as a temporary host would be far too risky and would likely kill the symbiote in most cases. On the subject of the sentience... I don't think it would make much difference if the creature was sentient or not. The symbiote could take control of it anyway.. I know the Tok'ra like to share their hosts, but if the creature wasn't sentient I doubt they would have many moral issues with keeping control.

They are passed the selected memories of the Queen that spawned them, presumably though DNA. Anything learned by the symbiote after they were spawned would presumably be unique to them unless they were a Queen and were able to pass this onto their offspring.

It's an interesting question and in truth we don't really know... There would presumably be significant knowledge not passed on by genetics... If a Queen can spawn another Queen then the Queen's learned knowledge would also be passed on.

Here's a thought. Remember the ritual cannibalism we saw in Summit? Perhaps there is a way for a Goa'uld to absorp the dna from a rival Goa'uld's larva by eating the flesh.

This idea appeals to me even more when I remember that ancient people often practiced this, thinking that eating the heart of a courageous foe would give the victor the courage displayed by the victim.

It implies more queens, though. (See other topics.)