Season 3, Episode 20 - Maternal Instinct
Original Air Date: February 25, 2000

Using the combined knowledge of Bra'tac, Daniel, and computer analysis, SG-1 finds the planet most likely to be "Kheb", of Jaffa and Goa'uld legend. Bra'tac and SG-1 travel to the planet in search of the Harsesis child, the child Apophis fathered with Sha're/Amaunet, in a race to find the child before Apophis.

yeah i guess i liked this episode

That's an understatement! I found this to be a very powerful episode, and one which you should watch occassionally as future seasons pan out. Alot comes back to this episode.

I know this ep back to front, so hopefully can get some decent discussion going here. What's your opinion on this: is the (physical, human) child dead or not? I say he is.

The obvious Buddhist overtones were always present, but it wasn't until many seasons later I realised the importance of this episode.

I concluded that the Ascended consist of MANY races, not just say the Ancients, or whatever they turn out to be. But the one thing in common is they are all dead. Oma, monk, Orlin, Daniel - all dead as door nails. They interact but do not descend unless neccessary - eg Orlin talked to Sam while in ascended state, only when he wanted more he descended.

So the only catch here was the kid. Logically he HAS to be dead to fit into this. When ascended talk to us it is only an image of them, they are projecting themselves etc. Hence Shifu not only changed age, but also nationality.

When the priestess was shot on Kheb I concluded the kid was killed at that time, Oma floated along, got pissed, picked up the kid, ascended it, barbequed some Jaffa and went on her merry way.

Yes I know Daniel was holding.... life isn't always perfect.

Yes, very much Buddhist overtones with "ascending to a higher plane". The interesting thing though is that this episode seems to suggest that it takes time to come to a place from which you are able to ascend. It isn't something you can just suddenly say "I'm going to ascend". DJ makes a lot of progress in undersanding in this episode, but much later when he actually does ascend, is it simply a matter then of making the decision to do so?

I know that in Abyss where he is trying to convince O'Neill to ascend, he seems to say the process will be quick as DJ will be there to assist him with his ascent. But that seems to somewhat contradict what happens in this episode.

You're right that the child could be either alive or ascended, but that's a tough one. Bra'tac says that the Jaffa were shooting low in order to avoid hitting the child, and you can't imagine Apophis being wildly pleased if the child was killed. Wouldn't want to be the Jaffa bringing back that particular item of information ...

But something to support the child being ascended is that in Maternal Instinct, the child is an infant. Yet in Absolute Power, just one year later, the child looks 5 or 6. This must mean that the child has ascended, otherwise there is no way that it could have grown so much in a year.

Chiroho I will continue discussion here in this thread, but I noticed that you hadn't posted in the What is Enlightenment? thread, so was wondering if you had seen it. It addresses many things that I want to say here.

I hadn't. I'll look and post there.

Ta muchly

Shifu leaving the SGC after being interrogated by the Tok'ra?

You've lost me on that one. Which episode is that?

Absolute Power. I was agreeing with you, and pointing out another plot hole (in my own argument). At the end of this episode Shifu glowy-fies and leaves through the Stargate.

Yep, should have remembered that. And the fact that he aged quickly was supposed to be because of nanites, or microbes, or Borg technology or something.

But the thing was that in that episode, he looked more like what you would expect the child of two Egyptian decended people would look like. In Maternal Instinct he seemed way too white.

OK, I'll bite.

I'll agree that it appears to be possible for an ascended being to descend voluntarily - as Orlin did in Ascension. But there must be some sort of compelling reason for doing so. After all, if it were that straight forward, why would DJ simply not descend? Perhaps Orlin had been ascended for a long period of time and had not achieved much in the way of guidance and yearned for a real relationship again?

But I do not think the monk was ascended. When the Jaffa storm the monastery he is hit by a blast from a staff weapon - at which point he ascends. Remember that although he seemed to appear out of thin air, he could simply have been coming through the "fake" wall behind which Oma showed DJ the baby.

The whole "touch" thing though seemed to be contradicted in Full Circle. (Spoiler). When they went back to Abydos after the destruction, doesn't O'Neill pick up a ball, which Skarra then takes from him before he disappears? But it's all illusiary as everything vanishes. How does that work?

Now, it definitely seems also to be true that to ascend, you need to have an already ascended being around to assist you - Oma with DJ, Oma with the Monk, etc. DJ even states this as being one of the purposes of the ascended.

I can see where you're going with the baby perhaps being descended, but in order to ascend don't you have to die? Happened with the monk, DJ, Orlin, and (spoiler) everyone on Abydos in Full Circle. So do you think that Oma would have killed the baby in order to re-ascend it?

I'm going to have to watch Absolute Power again to be sure of the facts, and I'll do that soon, but I'm not sure about the whole descend/ascend thing. But you're certainly right that it could have been a whole thing by the others just to warn Earth.

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...if it were that straight forward, why would DJ simply not descend...

Hmmm may I change your question to MS (instead of DJ) and work in the words "dummy", "spit", and "arrogant"??

As for the monk not being ascended, you are in fact correct IMHO. Yet there is more to it. I wrote in a thread months back that seemed to have been lost, but anyway, within the Buddhist religion (if we are to assume that is where the writers are getting their ideas, and it appears so) there are beings who DELAY their "ascension" (to put all this in SG terms so that most can follow me) in order to assist the rest of us; to show us the way. Once the last human has made the path THEN and only then will that being move on himself. Now if that doesn't describe the monk in Maternal Instinct then I don't know what does.

The fact that he was physically killed ended that career and the others took him as he had always served them. So far so good.

Full Circle is a bit of a weird one, I'm still reeling from it all, but (spoilers) yes the ball was weird, but perhaps (a strong stretch of imagination here) Skaara had been descended and was actually "real" (and so was the ball) in order to talk to them. Perhaps he hadn't been ascended long enough to know HOW to talk while in that state. Or perhaps the others, all of them, were present due to the severity of what happened and they have more powers than we can imagine, hence can affect our perceptions of the ball (which wasn't real after all).

If you didn't read that spoiler don't worry, you haven't missed much, this thread will continue without that knowledge, it was just further evidence of what we're talking about.

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in order to ascend don't you have to die?

Actually, if you're talking (real) Buddhist philosophies here then no, you don't. But that is hard for non-Buddhists to comprehend, and I'm not going to even try here. However, in the context of SG then yes and no. Yes you need to have died IN THE FIRST PLACE, but after that it seems perhaps you can hop in and out (but with help from the others) at will.

Well let's assume for a second that the character descending was not related to the actor not being available for season 6. Why would DJ not decend? Did he not know that he could decend? That can't be true as he knew that Orlin decended so that he could "touch" SC. Did he perhaps then feel that he could achieve more as an ascended being than he could if he decended? it's an interesting point.

But to get back more on topic, I can understand that there are beings who could DELAY their ascension. And that does seem to describe the monk in this episode. But to be quite blunt, he did take a staff blast to the chest before the actually ascended. Should we call that "glowed away"?

Yes, Full Circle is a weird one - although we have to currently discuss in hidden text. I don't think that Skarra and the others ascended, decended, and then re-ascended. I say this only because when we have seen anyone ascend, it has involved their body disappearing and changing into a glowing form - as Skarra did in this episode, DJ did in Meridian, and Orlin did in Ascension. So they must have been ascended the whole time they were appearing - which does make the ball thing something of a plot error. But then again, if the Stargate on Abydos is also only a manifestation, how could they actually use it? So there must be some things that an ascended being can do.

And while I realise that in the true Buddhist sense, you may not need to die to Ascend, we have only seen it portrayed that way in Stargate. It is true for the monk, DJ, Orlin, and Skarra. Now they didn't actually die I suppose, but were near death and released their grip on life in order to ascend. And maybe this is the distinction. But certainly on the series they have reached the point of no longer being able to survive on their own any longer before they actually ascend - DJ was irradiated, Orlin was shot, monk was hit with a staff weapon, etc.

So I think I disagree - at least in the SG context anyway. If you decend, then you need to die again in order to re-ascend as Orlin did. He said that "the others" were giving him a second chance and that was how he was able to ascend again. He did not seem to be able to do it on his own.

OK, so where exactly does that leave us? That we agree to disagree?

Well I wanted to edit my post but it appears that I cannot - perhaps now because I'm no longer a "Regular Member"? Ticks me off some, but anyway ....

I did just want to include the fact that in Ascension, Orlin distinctly says that it is possible for "one of his kind" to descend, but they cannot ascend again without assistance. So, at least in SG terms, that definitely contradicts the theory that after ascending once, you can decend and ascend at will.

Oh apparently there are now rules dictating when we can/can't edit posts, which, ahhh, I don't personally agree with, but such is life. It does annoy me too. I understand Arcady's reasons for such, but... ahhh you and I can't change anything.

As for (spoilers for 6x22 Full Circle) Balls, Skaaras, and appearing stargates that only remain until used once I guess there really are alot more powers the Ascended have than we have so far seen. Once again you haven't missed anything if you didn't read that.

As for DJ not ascending, then try this: Daniel is a one-sided person alot of the time, and is only in it to save his precious wife and blonde bimbo. If he was "offered" something as important as ascension he would grab the chance because (quote) "Jack I believe I can do more this way.". Perhaps it was pure innocence and naiveness that kept him asended; he didn't want to join us plebs again. I think if Oma (speculation, not spoilers here) really does turn out bad and he eventually realises that then he may well once again join the Americans as the righteous... blah blah you know what I mean.

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I can understand that there are beings who could DELAY their ascension. And that does seem to describe the monk in this episode. But to be quite blunt, he did take a staff blast to the chest before the actually ascended. Should we call that "glowed away"?

Why not? In real Buddhism as on Kheb, a 'human' stays behind as guidance, a teacher, someone to show the way. Eventually he will move on himself. The monk was real; he could be shot and indeed was. After he physically died he ascended (either on his own, or most probably with Oma at the helm). Chiroho I seem to be talking down to you here, given the level of our conversations I'm doubting you don't get this, hence perhaps I'm missing your point?!?!??!

(Spoilers for 6x22 Full Circle) Which is more believable, SG1 gate to a planet that was completely annihilated, talk to some dead ascended dude, play soccer with some equally dead kids and gate back through a gate that doesn't exist??? OR that the Ancients who 'rescued' (using that loosely and somewhat sarcastically) Abydos were watching SGC and realised what they were doing so hijacked the wormhole and directed SG1 to another physical place where they could control the elements. Dream, mirage, mass hullicinations, whatever you wanna call it it wasn't actually Abydos.

As for Orlin and Shifu re-ascending, I believe they need 'others' to do that for them, and I believe that Shifu was not alone in the SGC that time. But I don't believe you have to die first. I believe Orlin was referring to him being given a second chance because of the attrocities he first committed (a second chance to join them as an upstanding citizen or something, not just to become ascended again). It just coincided with him dying.

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so where exactly does that leave us? That we agree to disagree?

Your journey has only just begun, as Oma teaches

Anyone wonder how Oma De Sala was able to kill all those Goa'uld without someone stopping her? The Ascended aren't allowed to just zap people...

if they are threatened, then they are probably allowed to attack, in this episode, they used lightning and therefore indirectly killed the jaffa.

i finally got to see this episode ..good one ..

but doesn't the ascended oma remind you of the last human seen in that last babylon 5 movie?

finally they find the boy love that buhdist theme