I had a strange deja vue feeling about the village and then I finally got where it came from... The changes they had made to the set made it look like a carneval...

All in all I think the episode was pretty good and gave more depth to McKay's character which is my favourite of them all because he's the most colorful. From one side he can be heroic, caring and simply brilliant and then there's the other, arrogant side of him.

What made me think was the Daedalus military guy's (don't remember the name) accusation to Weir that she has put the Ancients on a pedestal. The Ancients have been portray as the almost perfect, all knowing race and every assumtion that they might have made a mistake is regarded as absurd. But, come on, nobody's perfect! IMO Rodney was right to question their calculations he just didn't have to be so damn self-assuered.

One thing, though, I just can't get used to the "Baywatch" guy in a sci-fi series

David Hasselhoff is on Atlantis? Noooo!

This post has been edited by ted_simple: Aug 22nd 2005, 1:52 PM

I would say "I hope the writers show that Weir has learned from this.."

bad episode but ronan killing a guy was sweet

Bet you got that from the link below.

Trinity Title Thread

That J_B is one smart dude, even if I do say so myself!

That?s nuts! Change McKay I will stop watching if they do! He is by far the best and most interesting one on the show.

This has been my fav episode to date(both series included) I love the new guy as well. They NEED to have him shirtless for three or for consecutive episodes though.

My one complaint about this show was that Shepperd was such a dick to Rodney. Yeah, he made a mistake of biblical proportions, but he didn't do anything out of malice. He honestly did believe he could pull the whole thing off or he never would have risked his own life, let alone Shepper?s, if he had even a shadow of doubt. If Shepperd was really his friend he would know this and forgive him. This detracts from the show in my opinion because if you can't believe the characters have a real affection for each other than it looses half of its appeal. That?s why SG-1 is so good. Jack or Daniel or Teal'k would never have given Sam the cold shoulder no matter what she did, they would have forgiven her no questions asked. If the writers need to change anything they should develop a stronger friendship bond between the 4 main characters. Any way, in spite of that 10/10

Agreed.
The McKay character pretty much has to be just that way or become a Carter ripoff.

It looks like the writers somewhat wrote a corner, because SG1 characters are cooperative with each other but wanted Atlantis to be a different show. Well having non-cooperative characters is different, though maybe not productive.
I haven't seen very much bonding at all on the show, and most episodes have characters (even Sheppard/Teyla) saying things to each other that I wouldn't say to coworkers I barely know because its mean.

As a personal note, I'd give McKay credit (definitely a military one) of making one of the largest explosives seen to date. Bet one of those would've stopped that Prior in SG1.

McKay is a #1 jerk! It's always about him. He's always right, no one else. He's the smartest. He can do anything. He's even smarter than the ancients. McKay was way off base and needs to be knocked down a peg or two. I hope that neither Sheppard or Weir lets McKay do anything for awhile. McKay had no business coming down on Zelenka, who is his favorite person to pick on. Yes, this is McKay's character, but not to this point. It's Mckay that cannot stand the competition.

McKay did not risk his life, why? because he feels he knows anything, so it never even occurred to him to not do it. He didn't hesitate to send Collins in to do something manually and forget that he was there and told them to begin the test. Like I said, he's a jerk!

woohoo round of applause, much better i admit after last weeks debarckle i was a little scepticle but never fear! everything will be ok

i admit i picked up on the villiage being from origin within a couple of seconds, despite all the crazy carnival flags i noticed the second the were there, however, it was kinda a cool set so i can forgove them, i just hope they give us something damned good with all the money they saved.

yes elizabeth yelling at McKay was classic, as for his ego i highly doubt he will alter it, however he may be a little more cautious in future and hopefully listen to zelenka, poor baby, *pats her fave sciencey guy on the head in sympathy*

as for Ronan, he should have shot Teyla instead stupid bloody Teyla.

Why don't you like Teyla? Besides it seems Ronan seems a bit interested in her (or at least friendly) so I doubt he'd do that

of course he's interested in her, he's been on the run from the wraith for 7 years, the guy needs to get laid already, that much time with no companionship but myself i think id probably be desperate enough to be interested in Teyla if she was the only option....he dosn't know anyone on Atlantis well enough to really trust them yet, after all they are from another galaxy, but he has a lot in common with Teyla. as for why i don't like her, she's annoying, she's stupid, she never does anything of any importance and the only thing her character has going for her is she can play well with sticks. as for rachael lutrell, no offence but i dont think she's a very good actress, and if they stuck the character in for some extra female material to look at they could have done a damn sight better. it just bugs me that the only point i can see to her character is the whole 'we have to even up the man-woman ratio so lets stick in a female version of Teal'c with a load of local knowledge and the ability to fight' it dosn't work though, because she's about as usefull as Ford. at least Ford is occasionally ammusing.

Ford bugs me a lot more than teyla and he's out of the way now, which is good. Teyla's a bit of eye candy for the guys, our knowledge-of-trading-partners person, and our Resident Alien to suggest we do something differently. That's a role. Fords role was to shoot things. Any extra can shoot things.

Anyways, this episode was disturbing to me. Seems like the writers wanted a frienship-screwup episode. All the characters at one point in the series have to mess up a friendship and then fix it, but it felt kinda wierd that they squeezed 2 storylines into a show and both had a similar outcome.

Ronin shooting the guy was unexpected, Teyla's reaction was not. McKay being wrong was also predictable, and yes, I do hope they focus on other characters(ronin/teyla, sheppard/wier) a bit more.

After this episode I firmly have my shippy predictions for the series: Ronin/Teyla(You two make a nice match; when he was drunk I thought someone might get laid), and Sheppard/Wier(Sparks, sparks...and more SPARKS! You've got that little line of tension between them...and more sparks!)

eye candy? no offense sweetheart but she isnt exactly pretty....she isnt even marginally attractive, but hey thats just my opinion.


oooo yes john and elizabeth however zelenka will be crushed, poor baby

No one else remembered Collins either, not even Shepperd or Zelenka, so you can't hold that against him. None of them knew how dangerous the thing was until after Collins got fried. And I don't feel all that bad for Zelenka, he stands up for himself well enough, he has even made McKay back down before(Duet). And no matter what passes between them they still seem like friends deep down.

I don't think that everybody needs to get along as good as those in SG-1 but I still want them to be friends no matter what. And I don't get that feeling now and It takes a lot of the fun out of the show


NO, NO, NO.....Zelenka+Wier

Shepperd+Sora(I hope they bring her back,I liked her and they still have her
captive, what's up with that?) I do agree about Tayla and Ronin.

Zelenka likes Weir but Weir likes Shep.

Sora isn't in Atlantis any longer. She was traded back to the Genii in 'The Siege II' for the Nukes. However the scene ran too long & it had to be cut.

So technically it did not happen than. Sora could be brought back without an explaination.

It did happen! Joe Mallozzi has already said that she was sent back in exchange & that she's no longer in Atlantis any longer. They were simply forced to cut the scene as they over ran it & had to cut something out. They chose that. Perhaps she might be seen later on in 'Coup D'etat'.

I hope it's going to be Liz and John. Why else would Torri Higginson be named second in the credits?

I thought the Ancients outpost is very cool , but a power-source that is better than the ZPM, it was to be expected that it was too good to be true. They started of very enthusiastic and they were actually smiling. Then everything hit the fan with a death. A death I thought would have affected McKay more than it did. It was very touching that Sheppard trusted McKay and the two of them and Dr. Zelenka was very good. Like in the episode ?Runner? we see character traits of Rodney that aren?t very good. And even though it isn?t one of my favorite things about him, it does cause some very impressive scenes.

It?s kind of interesting to see Ronin in his natural habitat. But I did think it was stupid of him to betray Teyla?s friendship (I think that maybe between them there could be a bit more than friendship). But that seems to go around in this episode. Now that we know there are more of is people out there, maybe they are like Ronin and want to fight the Wraith and join Atlantis? cause.

But the best thing about this episode in my opinion is the last scene. It is not one of those scenes that make you laugh or cry. It is not overly exaggerated or too emotional. It?s just a great scene.

I totally agree, the only strong point for Teyla was in ?The Gift? when she was the moral ideal by wanting to help people no matter the cost and Sheppard was pitched against her as human morality, I liked how she aided with the realisation that not only are we evil bar stewards but that the two galaxies have very different values.

Beyond this she?s been a pointless weight and the expression on her face when she said ?It is done? in Siege III made me cringe? her eyebrows are like caterpillars sometimes they move that much, learn to moderate the facial movement then you?ll be a decent actress dear!!!

Anyway on to the relevant bit:

I disliked this episode quite a lot, in fact its only saving grace was the poignant overtone of that being the Ancients? last bastion of hope, beyond that they had nothing.

The first clip of the desolate ships definitely set the tone for the first ten minutes with the knowledge that at some point there would have been a flurry of activity and massive amount of desperation from either side battling for their very lives but ultimately all that the team saw was a coldly lifeless grave yard of tattered remnants from eras passed. I really liked that way of compounding the scale of what happened ten thousand years ago by showing its artefacts now.

After that the dismal shards of an exterminated society created a haunting atmosphere because at some point there would have been countless thousands of people flowing around, all that remained was a black landscape with all life burned from it. The thunder was bit clich? though.

The music was wonderful, the ghostly piano and tragically drawn out notes when the team found the corpses really added ambience for me. Then the fact the Ancients never managed to retrieve the bodies showed how much they had lost by the end of the war, the people who valued life and compassion couldn?t even claim their own for... whatever they did with bodies... very sad.

Even more disturbing for me was when it turned out the Ancients on Atlantis ordered the use of the weapon against recommendations because they were not only desperate for progress when facing defeat but because they had no other defensive options available to them? that defiantly illustrates how far the resources of the most powerful race in the SG universe had dwindled.

After that theme was set for me I could just see the inhabitants looking up in apprehension at the weapon flailing fire at the orbiting Wraith, praying that it succeeded in defending them so they wouldn?t endure terrible deaths. Or the Ancient scientists? hopes being shattered into a thousand pieces when their last chance failed, then dying with guilt as they struggled to stop their creation killing innocent allies ultimately resulting in them valiantly sacrificing their lives then having nobody remember what transpired there.

Other than that I extracted nothing of relevance from the episode, the break down of trust happened to quickly? it should have been small events placed over a season, not in a few short episodes with ridiculously out-of-character decisions.

McKay?s arrogance was totally unrealistic even considering that he thought he could save the galaxy, the end result was obvious from the start, Caldwell said that the Ancients were being placed on too high a pedestal which raised fears that the producer might dare give them a human factor (i.e. total failure and moral ineptitude) when they should be written as that pedestal race, I felt that skipping the Teyla/Ronon story it was that lacking in character development or relevance, McKay?s remorse was inconsistent as he nearly cried when addressing Sheppard but lightly said ?5/6 its not an exact size? when talking to Weir, and while I understood the techno-babble's context I found it unbelievable.

Overall the ghostly Ancient involvement bumped it to a 6/10 but I?m not sure it was even intended but rather my obsession with them kicking in because I was getting my history ?shot? to make me happy.

Not.A.Happy.Bunny!

Doesn?t anyone else think Shepperd was unnecessarily mean to McKay at the end of the episode? I do. Shep was such a prick when Mckay went to him at the end of the episode. He seemed like he would rather teach McKay a lesson then comfort his distraught friend. And before that when McKay went to Shep's quarters after Collins got killed, all guilt ridden I might add, Shep wouldn?t even let him in. What the hell was that??I guess they are not friends at all and I don?t like that one little bit

I don't think he was being a P about it. It was him who convinced Weir to let McKay go back & do it.

Yet he almost destroyed a whole solar system, I've read other opinions about the reason why, such as to try & make Collins death as to not have been in vain. I don't think that's the reason at all. It was him who sent Lindstrom to check out the systems along with him in 'Intruder' & he ended up getting sucked out into space. More than anything it was his ego. He wanted to succeed where the Ancients failed, he refused to heed any advice or warnings that were given to him, by insisting he was right & everyone else was wrong.

Although it''s possible I don't think that there was a second planet in the solar system that sustained similar human life. So by Shep trying to avoid him & being cold to hil was him getting off far, far too lightly. Shep should have smacked him a good one & Weir should have sent his ass to the brig for a little cooldown period.

One thing I hope though, is that they managed to get detailed plans for the whole project, including the energy weapons before they went back & blew everything up.

But not because they were friends, it was because Sheperd saw value in the weapon



So he's arrogant, not malicious. And it wasn't only him that was all gung ho about going back to the weapon to try again. X-Files wanted it as well. And Linstrom was murdered, you can't blame that on McKay


I don't see how the rest of the SGA group could think it was not worth the risk to try again even if the chances of sucsess were slim to none. I also don't see how anyone could think its reasonable to turn your back on a friend when they just might need you the most....That's cold

This episode was okay with a couple of points:

1) I like McKay, I really do. But we do have some other characters on the show. Sheppard is starting to feel like a backdrop.

2) I have no problems with starting some romance on the show, but does anyone else think they are slamming Teyla and Ronin together? I mean the one guy even called Teyla Ronin's girlfriend. How much more blatant can you get?

You must have been watching a different episode from me. As I recall Shep didn't want to go back at all. He only agreed because Rodney asked him to trust him.

Of course Caldwell wanted it, he's military & I'm sure all of the Marines in Atlantis wanted it as well. However none of them had a say in the matter did they.

I didn't say he was malicious at all! I said Ego! Which is by all definitions Arrogance. So there really was nothing to add in there.

The problem is the rest of the main SGA team did think that the risks were too great. I'm sure they wanted the power source as anyone would have, However after the death then peoples lives took priority. That's why they stopped the project after the first time. Weir only relented because Shep asked her to, which was due to McKay having pleaded with him earlier. I don't think that will ever happen. Shep is feeling guilty because if he had of poot his foot down then this wouldn't have happened. So him avoiding McKay yet saying that McKay could still win back his trust in time was very humanic. He should have put his boot down his throat instead.

They didn't turn their backs on him at all. They tried to stop him from himself, but ultimtaely failed. You don't seem to realize exactly what was destroyed. So because he wanted to prove he was smarter than the Ancients & failed. Destroying most of a solar system in the process & the other senior members of the team decide to give him the cold shoulder, then that's wrong because he needs them. He gave his word it wouldn't happen as before, yet it was much, much worse the second time. Goodness knows how much life was wiped out when the big bang took out the solar system.

Then when back in Atlantis when Weir is giving him a scolding, he turns around & says it's not an exact science. Hardly the words of a remorseful man, don't you think! So McKay gets the cold shoulder, Boo Hoo! That's the absolute lightest punishment that he would have received. If that had been real life, His ass would have been on the first plane home. Luckily for him then, that he's a main character.